to be so upset and angry about an accident ds had at nursery?

[NatKat]

Hi. I was hoping for some views on how I should manage a situation at my ds nursery. He is almost 3 years old. A couple of months ago I picked him up in the evening to find that he had a swollen and slightly cut upper lip. The staff rather sheepishly reported that he had fallen after breakfast at 8am and hit his mouth on the table. Poor ds looked very upset and tearful. They reported that he had not eaten anything all day and that he had sobbed himself to sleep at nap time. I was shocked and appalled that they had not contacted me and did not even administer any pain medication. I asked why they did not contact me but they had no response. I am currently on maternity leave and only 10 minutes away, not that I wouldn't have come home from work if I was there. I didn't pursue it at the time but I have continued to be upset about the way he was treated that day. Earlier this week I noticed that his front tooth has started to go grey and it has been confirmed by a dentist that it has died. This has confirmed to me that the poor child must have had a bad fall that day and must have been in a lot of pain. We have withdrawn him from the nursery and told them to expect a written complaint. However, we are considering reporting them to OFSTEAD too. There have been a number of less severe incidents at the nursery that we have been unhappy about. In particular, there appeared to be a very high number of accident forms which lead us to question how well the children were being supervised. He also had a very bad nappy rash when he was in the baby room - skin was broken and took over a week to heal. Has anyone else any experience of complaining about a nursery? How many minor accidents are acceptable? I do of course understand that toddlers have accidents but at one point we being asked to sign two or three accident forms a week.

my dd had the exact same accident at her pre school a few years ago and they contacted me straight away, her front also died and is a grey/brown colour, they contacted me as she was quite distressed and they thought she needed taken to a dentist asap, which we did and they told us things to look out for, i think the nursery treated him appaullingly (is that a word?).

If i were you i would report your concerns to OFSTED.

I think you have every right to be cross. Yes, children have bumps and scrapes, but to leave him upset all day without calling you? And without food? That's inhumane and negligent, IMO.

Poor sausage. You did the right think taking him out.

The nursery behaved very poorly. Of course they should have called you and you are right to be upset and angry, so yanbu.

IMHO, nurseries do not offer a great level of care and most children would be far happier at home with caring parents. I became a sahm after finally accepting this (dd had been at nursery for a year or so by this point). Of course i know that i am lucky that i was able to change my circumstances. Not eveyone has that choice available to them.

NatKat what was their last ofsted like?

I would add again that Ofsted's mandate is actually very limited by policy and statute to enquiring whether, on the day of their visit, the nursery is meeting National Standards.

They will not adjudicate on an individual complaint. They will not decide whether the nursery should or should not have told you.

They will only investigate whether the nursery's general policy relating to the recording and reporting of accidents meets the requirements established National Standards.

Those standards are your first port of call. They can be found on the Ofsted website. Have a look at what they say about accidents. If the nursery acted within those guidelines, Ofsted will not do anything.

Sorry to bang on about it, but most people have no idea that Ofsted are actually pretty toothless and have a very limited brief in relation to private nurseries.

Even if breaches of standards are found, time is given to put it right and the only sanction is that it might appear on the next Ofsted report which may not be due for several years.

debs40, so does that mean when Ofsted took over from councils, we lost any ability to complain about poor treatment of children?

VERY disturbing OP. YANBU at all. Do complain to ofsted, what happened to your poor child was totally unreasonable. I would have been livid. Can't understand those who say this is acceptable

I agree, this was more severe than a normal toddler bump, and I'm a bit puzzled about those of you, who have worked in nurseries, and think that it was acceptable to let a child be distressed all day, and not eat because of it.

This isn't the level of car I'd be happy with (and I'm no parent of PFBs)

car, not car

Jeez care, not car ........

I think the worrying thing is that clearly he was behaving out of character for the rest of the day and the nursery STILL did nothing about it and that rings big alarm bells for me. I would def. report it, abnormal behaviour after any sort of blow to the head (and the face counts as a head injury) warrants an immediate check by a Dr in my book.

edam - in practice, Ofsted will do very little save check the nursery's paperwork.

The key is that they have no power to act as judge/jury on a complaint by a parent. So, although they will accept complaints, they will not investigate the complaint itself but rather will use it when considering whether national standards are being complied with.

I took this up at a very senior level as the whole system is very misleading to parents who believe they can complain about poor practice and get something done about it.

Ofsted seem to lack the statutory powers and the will to do anything.

For example, a few years back, they made a policy decision to list any complaints received on the Ofsted report. Nurseries were up in arms about this and the policy was changed after discussions were held between those who represent nurseries and Ofsted. Without public discussion or explantion but just because nurseries did not like it, they dropped this policy. It simply disappeared from their website.

Now, unless, they find a breach of the national standards, they can and will do nothing.

Example, you might complain that the nrusery is running under staff/child ratio which breaches National Standards. However, if Ofsted attend and are shown a record of the staff there, including peripatetic music teachers, the cleaner and the cook, and the numbers add up. End of. They will not specifically investigate the complaint you make. They will simply say whether the nursery is breaching standards on the day they attend.

Stressful and pointless. You've more chance of getting something done by working with the management.

Blimey. Am v. glad mine is too old for this to be an issue.

Who the hell allowed us to have a system that doesn't deal with complaints from parents? And what on earth is the DCSF doing allowing it to continue?

Think there should be an MN campaign on this. First to alert parents using nurseries and second to put pressure on the govt. to create a system where parents' complaints are addressed.

So sorry that I have not been able to be as involved with this discussion as I had hoped. Very busy weekend and both kids appear to be coming down with something. We have decided that we will complain to OFSTEAD but I have been so disheartened by comments that they actually have no power to deal with a complaint - even one more serious than ours. We hoped that at a minimum people would be made aware of our complaint in the next report but that doesn't seam to be the case. How can it be that vulnerable children are put in such a position?

Bluejellybean - The nursery has a good previous OFSTEAD report and any parent I have spoken to speaks highly of it. I think that it is very hard for parents to take a good look at what is happening. If I am honest, there have been things that I wish I had followed up before now. However, when you have no other childcare options what can you do but try to have some trust in people and hope for the best.

I am sorry to say that I tend to agree with Tinseltot - I don't think that most nurseries provide adequate care. I really admire your decision to become a SAHM and have no doubt that your kids will benefit from it.

I think that it is important to add that my decision to take DS out of the nursery was partly due to a member of staff disclosing that she did not think that that nursery was the best place for him. She said this totally unprompted in response to me telling her that we plan to move soon and therefore DS was due to leave after Christmas anyway. She is quite junior there and only works mornings. She said that DS is a sensitive child and that his needs were not being met there. She began to describe some members of staff being unresponsive to him becoming upset and crying in the garden. I have actually witnessed this with another child there. The staff member was just glaring at a little girl crying in the middle of the floor. She was not aware that I could see her through the window. However, she jumped up and started cuddling the girl when a Dad entered the room.

This week I bumped into another member of staff who voluntarily left a while ago. She said that she was not surprised by DS's accident and that staff in that room regularly sit around chatting.

She also said she had considered making a complaint herself due to concerns about poor hygiene and policies not being followed. She said that many accidents occur - including head injuries - that are never reported. Staff basically wait to see if there is visible evidence before writing up an incident form.

I am sure that it is not just our nursery that works like this - edam - a campaign is most certainly needed. DH loves a good campaign.

I can understand why you are upset,but if you are otherwise happy with the nursery i do think you are being unreasonable.
i don't think they have been remiss at all.Kids that age are tripping up and bumping themselves VERY VERY commonly.They are also miserable and grouchy very commonly.
they are being paid a lot of money to look after a child and many parents would be livid to be pulled out of work because their DC had cried a bit at nap time or had a mminor bump.If they sent home every child who wasn't happy there they would have an eempty room.They really can't do right for doing wrong.

I think a campaign would be a great idea.

I am very passionate about these things (that's the lawyer in me) and I battled with Ofsted at the highest levels about my last experience which did eventually result in findings of non-compliance.

Ofsted really need to make their obvious lack of power in relation to complaints known to parents.

As a first step, we could check the Ofsted site to see what it says (they were supposed to have changed it after my battle with them!) and then write on mass to the Director - he will have an email address.

there response will confirm their lack of power and the policy regarding notification of non-compliances to parents. We could then use this to complain to our MPs.

ooooo, I'm getting carried away now

Also, I would say that although I have had a bad experience, there are good nurseries out there. My youngest is at a wonderful nursery now. I have complete faith in the management and staff. It makes all the difference.

I'm sure that there are good nurseries out there. A tiny voice in my gut was telling me that this one was not OK - I wish I had listened sooner.

debs40 am going to get DH involved in this campaign discussion. He has just finished a campaign in relation to our local train service and has lots of ideas about how to take this forward.

Ofsted are just a bloody nuisance. I really can't see what good they do for nurseries. Their inspections don't seem worth the paper they're written on, and I am frequently appalled every time I read one to see the high level of grammatical and spelling mistakes, and poor phraseology. Who are they employing as inspectors, FGS?

My DS is at a brilliant nursery, my other DS went there too and blossomed. They never have to advertise as it is so good that they fill their places through word of mouth. Staff turnover is very low - most of the youngsters that join stay for years and years. I had moved DS1 there after being unhappy with his previous one. Guess which nursery got the better Ofsted inspection next time around? Yep - the more inadequate one. I feel it was because they knew how to play the system and do all the box-ticking. My son's provides a far better environment to children than the other nursery ever could, yet due to some minor paperwork misdemeanour they got marked as inadequate and had to be reinspected. Any prospective parenting reading that would be put off. It's just wrong.

I am with you on the campaign!

YANBU and I think your gut instinct maybe reveals more than the actual incident - e.g. I can imagine the nursery my dds go to perhaps not calling me if they thought it was a minor accident that I didn't need to be called out of work for (for some people having to leave is a big issue, after all), but I absolutely would expect lots of love and cuddles and worry if dd was still upset or was not eating.

Nurseries are big business these days, and I do worry that some are set up just for the money, with minimum ratios and with cheap as possible staff. That sort of place needs to be complained about and improved/closed down for all our children's sakes. It makes life harder for the good nurseries as well.

But I have to echo - there are excellent nurseries out there with motivated and loving staff.

You said they had a good Ofsted report - do you know what their staff turnover is like? I think that can be a very good indicator.

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. The very fact that he was SO upset should have prompted them to call you. Yes, you don't call home for every bump and scrape or even if they're a bit upset... but if they're still in pain (the tooth needed checking out) and they're still upset a good while later, then you should have been called. It's not like he's even at school yet!! I would definitely inform Ofsted and to all those who are not so sympathetic, I wonder how they'd feel if it was their child in pain/upset for the majority of the day?