to be sad at the casual racism I see everywhere?

[ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight]

Yesterday I was queuing for petrol at Asda. All pumps closed apart from two so long queue. There was a van stopped at the pump, with nobody in it, or at the pump. I got out after a while to find out what was going on. Asked the man in car in front if he knew why the van was stopped there, he gestured to a woman over at the payment bit (It was a self pay pump) and said 'that traveller woman doesn't know how to use the pump and the staff are all on their tea break.'

I know it's not awful in the scheme of things, but really, why mention she was a traveller? How did he even know? And why did nobody offer to help her use the pump? The subtext was clearly 'she's too stupid to use the pump because she's a traveller and I'm not helping because she's a traveller'.

Oh and travellers/roma/gypsies are a recognised ethnic group so that is racism, before people start talking about travellers being thieves/troublemakers!

There are other examples all the time. People mentioning a person's race for no reason, and implying that their behaviour has something to do with it, it's so prevalent and gets me down.

Harriet -
No, because the fact of him being italian may have had a bearing on his difficulty with the pump - but in that case I would have no doubt that someone would have helped him. The fact (or assumption) of her being a traveller had nothing to do with her trouble using the pump - but the fact that the man felt the need to mention it indicated strongly that he felt there was a link between her apparent incompetance and her ethnicity.

If it was a pay at pump yokey then the fact she was a traveller (if she was) would quite easily have a bearing on her ability to use the pump, as she would statistically be far less likely to have a credit or debit card, and may haev had a problem using it.

A young woman driving a van with dreadlocks though is highly unlikely to be a Traveller though in the context used.

OK, so that seems to be where the difference comes - to me, describing someone as a traveller would carry no more weight than describing them as short, Italian or black. Saying "traveller woman" to me just adds more description than just saying "woman", I don't ascribe any attitude to someone using that word whereas as others have said, if he'd decribed her as "pikey woman" I think you could infer the negatives that you have.

Kat - well if you wouldn't assume that the traveller woman was less likely to be literate than the affluent woman then you are a bit naive - sorry. But assuming only the non-traveller woman would be the one in the nice car? Now you are making assumptions - and wrong ones! They love a flash car.

Irish traveller children have the lowest rate of literacy of any ethnic group in Britain. The percentage of IT children leaving school with 5 A-C GCSEs is currently around 3.9%. The literacy rate across the age spectrums is woefully low, always has been, and around 90% or more of IT have no formal qualifications. If acknowledging that makes me a racist I'll don my white pointy hood now.
As for the bank accounts, they are becoming much more common now, but as rule it is hard to run your life from a proper bank account as settled people do, when your work is seasonal/transient and you are of no fixed abode. Cash still works best for them, I think you'll find.

But would you expect someone to answer 'that short woman is having trouble with the pump'? Or that fat woman? Or that blonde haired man? It's unecessary. There was only one woman, no need to distinguish her from anyone else. The fact that he mentioned her being a traveller is significant.

I hadn't thought of her not having a debit card. That is a good point and may have been the reason he mentioned it. However, it doesn't change much.

Kat have you read the thread further down about a nightclub having a door policy of not allowing too many black or Asian people in?

that, in my opinion, is the sort of racism we should worry about.

Nancy
I think we should worry about all racism, TBH. But I agree, this is not as serious as your thread. I said that in my OP.

Ah! I see! She was a new age traveller, not an Irish traveller! It's the dreadlocks that are the giveway - no self respecting Irish traveller would have them. Different breed of traveller all together, with bugger all in common really, least of all literacy rates .In that case he certainly wasn't being racist, because New Age Travellers do not have their own status as an ethnic minority and are assumed to be bog-standard British. It appears to be impossible to be racist towards anyone bog-standard British so he was merely refering to her in the sense of 'that woman with the lentils stuck to her dreadlocks and the filthy toenails'. Not racist.

It still seems that he made a random guess as to her lifstyle etc based on her appeaeance which is always strange.

Dreads and a van do not a traveller make.

IME when people make random guesses based on people's appearances there is usually an underlying "ism" of some sort.

Lol Tiggy that actually made me laugh
(see I'm not a humourless PC maniac). Whatever she was or wasn't (and we don't know, it was all his assumption) it's the assumption of incompetance, or dodginess, or whatever, that he linked to her being (his idea of) a traveller, that struck me. Whether or not he was correct in his assumption isn't really the point.

If he had said 'that indian woman' and the woman had actually been white with a deep tan it would stil;l have been casual racism, IMO.

Haven't read this whole thread but I don't see it as racist, fatist or whatever unless they are making the comment in a derogatory way. IMO people are just over sensitive nowadays.

I think you had to be there by the sound of it, kat. I'm still struggling to see how you can make the leap from him saying "traveller woman" to surmising that he thinks travellers are incompetent.

But you don't know that he was correlating her percieved status or background to her incompetence, and that is the core of the argument here.
If his point was she can't use the pump because she's a traveller , implying her ethnicity made her stupid or incapable, you have a point. But he could as easily have been saying "that woman there, the traveller as opposed to anyone else around who you might have thought was the hold up, can't use the pump", referencing her percieved status to differentiate her from others around her. You don't know.

Exactly proverbial (thankyou for explaining it so much better than me ), which is why I think his use of the word traveller rather than pikey or gypo would lead me to think he was merely being descriptive, unnecessary or not.

I don't see racism everywhere, casual or otherwise.

I think a lot depends on your own attitude.

For example. Years ago, my husband was approached by 2 old ladies who were selling raffle tickets. He bought some tickets, they had a nice chat and one of them patted his hand and said "We treat everyone the same you know."

He smiled at them, went home and pissed himself laughing.

He could have seen that as racism. I know many people who would have gone off on one at those old ladies. He thought it funny. He saw it for what it was.

Another example. In the pub. A bloke asked him where he was from. He said "Kenya". The bloke said "Oh, I know someone from Ghana (or somewhere, can't remember now! ). My husband laughed for ages and said "That's like you coming to Kenya and me saying "Where are you from? England? Oh, I know someone from Poland."
The bloke laughed and said that he had never looked at it like that! They have been firm friends for 3 years now! Again, the over-sensitive could have made an issue out of it and created a problem where none existed.

I went to a party once where a little girl couldn't take her eyes off me, came up to me and closely examined my hands . totally innocent.

You have to look beyond the words to the motivations. People can say terrible things with the nicest motives and no agenda and people can say sweet things that are vile! And if you look for racism everywhere you will find it everywhere. It's funny how my husband has never felt racially attacked in, god, 18? 19? years in this country? Living in london, derby, up north, all over... and yet some people can't walk out of their doors without seeing racism. I mean, if you are being racially abused or having bricks through your window that's different! clearly that's not what I'm talking about! I mean the constant interpreting everything and twisting it into a racial attack! There's no need.

This has got nothing to do with racism. 'Traveller' is a lifestyle, not a racial group, they are not recognised as a racial group at all.

Romany gypsies are a racial group, but that's it.

The OP is pretty ridiculous, comments about gypsies/travellers are usually far worse than this, 'theiving gypsy', 'pikey bitch', or whatever, would certainly be offensive.

Brilliant post, Hecates.
Your DH sounds well balanced with a sense of humour. It's such a pity more people weren't like that. Uber-PCness is so boring.

You're wrong actually someguy, Irish Travellers are a legally recognised seperate ethnic group that dates back hundreds of years, and are protected by EU legislation. It is not a lifestyle choice by any means.
Perhaps you are thinking of new age travellers, which sounds more likely for the reference in the OP.

But presumably it is OK to assume that she couldn't work the pump because she was a woman?

Thats much more likely isn't it Morloth?

(says the woman who had to ask a man how to get the petrol cap off my new car )

I totally play the "useless woman" card when I want a man to do something for me. Don't give a fuck if it sets feminism back 100 years. If I can get some silly bloke to change the tyre for the cost of a smile then damn right I am not getting my hands dirty.

I can do it, I just don't want to.

Was just amused that it was the word traveller that aroused the OP's anger and not the word woman when presumably used to indicate the reason that she couldn't use the pump.

Morloth
I didn't actually think of it that way. Blimey. The anti-PC ragers would doubtless find that funny that I miss seeing one 'ism' because I'm looking for another one...that is also a possibility. In which case it was a bit of racism and a bit of sexism. Even better.

That is 21st century feminism in my book, more fool them if they fall for it!

The bit in the OP that got me was the "clearly the subtext was....", how handy to be able to read peoples minds and always know what they mean but don't say!

I was just shitstirring kat2907, I don't know whether the man was racist or not, I wasn't there, I didn't hear the tone or get any idea of exactly what was implied.

I am usually described as that big, loud Australian woman. It is a fair description.

Yes morloth - but presumably people only describe you that way when they are either asked for a description of you, or need to point you out in a group.

Anyway, I'm flogging a dead horse here I shall let it go.