Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to be sad at the casual racism I see everywhere?

105 replies

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 11/08/2009 11:37

Yesterday I was queuing for petrol at Asda. All pumps closed apart from two so long queue. There was a van stopped at the pump, with nobody in it, or at the pump. I got out after a while to find out what was going on. Asked the man in car in front if he knew why the van was stopped there, he gestured to a woman over at the payment bit (It was a self pay pump) and said 'that traveller woman doesn't know how to use the pump and the staff are all on their tea break.'

I know it's not awful in the scheme of things, but really, why mention she was a traveller? How did he even know? And why did nobody offer to help her use the pump? The subtext was clearly 'she's too stupid to use the pump because she's a traveller and I'm not helping because she's a traveller'.

Oh and travellers/roma/gypsies are a recognised ethnic group so that is racism, before people start talking about travellers being thieves/troublemakers!

There are other examples all the time. People mentioning a person's race for no reason, and implying that their behaviour has something to do with it, it's so prevalent and gets me down.

OP posts:
Original poster
ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 11/08/2009 13:13

bruffin really? How so?

OP posts:
FioFioFio · 11/08/2009 13:14

EyeballsintheSky Tue 11-Aug-09 12:48:58

I totally agree that there is a lot of casual racism about and Spam and Norah's examples are all too common. But I'm not convinced that the man in the op was

same here and I do think there is adifference

Original poster
ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 11/08/2009 13:16

And there is nothing wrong with using words such as black, asian or white to describe people if a description is required, or if it is relevant. For example, I know that there are specific issues facing the traveller community. I couldn't work effectively with traveller children around these issues if I was not aware of them and how they impact specifically on travellers. This is not about never naming ethnic differences or pretending everyone is the same colour or ethnicity, but about a totally unecessary and pejorative use of a term of description.

OP posts:
MorningTownRide · 11/08/2009 13:24

It could be worse. He could have said called her a pikey.

BrieVanDerKamp · 11/08/2009 13:26

Kat2907...

What you said here..................

"The second ascribes a value judgement to their ethnicity - as if being black was connected to the bad behaviour. Likewise 'there were a lovely group of black teenagers on the bus behaving impeccably' is also casually racist - implying that they were lovely despite being black. That would be the same if the person had said white - but people rarely do being that white is the 'default' ethnicity."

......is bizzare!!

it would seem it is you with the problem, If someone said to me "....black teenagers behaving impeccably...", I'd think oh that's nice of those kids.....but you automatically read into it......."despite of them being black"!

How sad for you to see potential racism everywhere and in everything people say.

Oh yeah, and no one is talking about traveller being thieves or troublemakers apart from.......err, you!

LovelyTinOfSpam · 11/08/2009 13:29

How funny kat, my MIL does that as well, there was one time a teen had given his seat up for an old person, and the fact that he was black was provided as a sort of "well I never who'd have thought it" kind of a way.

Brie if you don't know anyone who behaves and talks like this you are very lucky.

Nancy66 · 11/08/2009 13:35

From the description I would say she was what's called 'a new age traveller' - I just can't see that that the bloke was trying to cause offence.

LovelyTinOfSpam · 11/08/2009 13:39

Or she could have been a gardener or a driving instructor or an office worker or a myriad of other things. And not a traveller at all.

If he was saying it based simply on the fact that she had dreads and a van...

BrieVanDerKamp · 11/08/2009 13:39

Talks like what????

You and Kat?

I haven't said anything about not knowing anything, what drives me mad is people like you and kat with your anti racisim rubbish which actually makes you more racsit than the people you're bloody standing against!!

It's so stupid, the man called her a traveller cos that's what he thought/knew that she was, he wasn't being nasty about the fact.

If he'd said "she doesn't know how to use the pump cos she's a dump pikey" then that would be cause for concern, but he didn't so why are you acting like he did.

Have you ever heard of diversity
we live in a diverse world and people are different for all kinds of reasons, just because someone notices/points out a difference dosen't mean they think that it's bad/less important etc

FioFioFio · 11/08/2009 13:40

Whereas those grey haired people with caravans going down the M4 are old age travellers

TheLadyEvenstar · 11/08/2009 13:41

why do some people think you cannot be racist to a white person??? not all white people are english, racism can be in many forms....

My ds1 got put in a book for racism when a child had said to him "you bought your shoes in poland" and ds1 replied "yeah and you bought yours in africa" ds1 was then classed as racist. THAT is pc gone mad.

Nancy66 · 11/08/2009 13:43

I don't think 'traveller' is any more offensive than saying:

Mod
rocker
biker
hippy

ok, he shouldn't have assumed but i don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things.

LovelyTinOfSpam · 11/08/2009 13:48

Talking like what?

Talking like my MIL saying "black kids causing trouble" and gurning like les dawson on the word "black".

You don't have to attach swear words to ethnicities to be racist you know. A sneer, cat bum face etc are just as effective.

Personally I also find it odd when people make assumptions about other people based on what they look like/how they dress etc which may well have happened in this case. Recently in my work someone saying "oh blah blah well she's obviously gay". Is she really? She hasn't told you that has she? Why bother guessing? And why does it even matter?

Original poster
ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 11/08/2009 14:14

Oh Brie
I'm really not racist. I have also heard of diversity. You just don't get what I am trying to say at all. Forget it, I've tried to explain and you can't grasp the concept - what a shame for you.

OP posts:
BonsoirAnna · 11/08/2009 14:18

Mentioning people's ethnicity when talking about them is not necessarily racist behaviour.

At my DD's school, where there is a huge variety of ethnicities/nationalities/religions/cultures, everyone talks about Iranians/Jews/Catholics/Italians/Americans etc etc. And why on earth not?

Original poster
ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 11/08/2009 14:22

Anna
read the thread. I can't be bothered to repeat myself but I have answered your question and explained my reasons already - as have others.

OP posts:
TiggyR · 11/08/2009 14:24
  1. Perhaps he knew she was a traveller because spoke with an Irish traveller's accent, which is very distinct. Like you'd know a Noo Yoiker or a broad Brummie.

2)Perhaps he didn't use the word gypsy as it's just a generic term and her knew she was a Traveller. Like referring to a Somalian or a Nigerian rahter than an African.

3)Perhaps he didn't call her a Roma because she clearly wasn't one, and why would you, if you know the difference?

  1. Perhaps he felt the need to point out that she was a traveller as it was entirely relevant to why she couldn't use the machine. Either she couldn't pre-pay with a debit card because she only deals in cash, or she couldn't read the instructions because she was illiterate. Or are they both an outrageous racist assumption to far for you?

If it had been a foreign tourist struggling because the pumps are different to the ones at home and he'd said 'That Italian chap over there' would we even be having this conversation? And if not, ask yourself why not?

BonsoirAnna · 11/08/2009 14:26

I have read the thread. You are the racist!

Gateau · 11/08/2009 14:29

Bonsoir, really, I wouldn't bother. The OP has thrown the dummy out because her argument is so pathetic.

pinkthechaffinch · 11/08/2009 14:34

I agree with the OP and I think she is right to call what she witnessed casual racism.
It certainly wasn't overt racism but it would also have disturbed me.
As the mother of a mixed race son I experience such casual racism on a daily basis, and I can attest to the fact that we do not live in a PC world gone mad!

Original poster
ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 11/08/2009 14:40

Ha! I'm a pathetic racist? Really?

I haven't thrown the dummy anywhere! I just couldn't be arsed to repeat the body of the thread to a poster who asked a question that I had already answered.

Anna - I have read many posts by you that have been odd to say the least so I'll ignore you. Others - you disagree with me, fine, it's a shame you couldn't suspend your prejudice long enough to read and digest what I said, but you have the right to your views, as I do to mine.

OP posts:
Original poster
ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 11/08/2009 14:43

And Tiggy - yes, they would indeed be racist assumptions too far. That is exactly why the man was casually racist, and you, sadly, seem to think he was right.
The woman in the car directly in front of me also had trouble with the machine. She was well dressed, in an expensive car. I would no more assume that she was illiterate than I would assume the apparent traveller woman was.

OP posts:
flashharriet · 11/08/2009 14:46

"If it had been a foreign tourist struggling because the pumps are different to the ones at home and he'd said 'That Italian chap over there' would we even be having this conversation? And if not, ask yourself why not?"

Interested in OP's response to TiggyR's question.

Gateau · 11/08/2009 14:48

Re throwing out your dummy,OP, Q.E.D.
Just listen to yourself!

You asked if you are being unreasonable. Many of us said you are. Live with it.

flashharriet · 11/08/2009 14:48

I agree there is casual racism everywhere but I'm struggling to see how the man was being anything other than descriptive.