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Original poster

to be sad at the casual racism I see everywhere?

105 replies

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 11/08/2009 11:37

Yesterday I was queuing for petrol at Asda. All pumps closed apart from two so long queue. There was a van stopped at the pump, with nobody in it, or at the pump. I got out after a while to find out what was going on. Asked the man in car in front if he knew why the van was stopped there, he gestured to a woman over at the payment bit (It was a self pay pump) and said 'that traveller woman doesn't know how to use the pump and the staff are all on their tea break.'

I know it's not awful in the scheme of things, but really, why mention she was a traveller? How did he even know? And why did nobody offer to help her use the pump? The subtext was clearly 'she's too stupid to use the pump because she's a traveller and I'm not helping because she's a traveller'.

Oh and travellers/roma/gypsies are a recognised ethnic group so that is racism, before people start talking about travellers being thieves/troublemakers!

There are other examples all the time. People mentioning a person's race for no reason, and implying that their behaviour has something to do with it, it's so prevalent and gets me down.

OP posts:
FioFioFio · 11/08/2009 12:22

if you work on the phone, why would you need a physical description>?

BrieVanDerKamp · 11/08/2009 12:23

Traveller or not. I don't see a problem the woman if she is a traveller probably doesn't see the problem, the only people who want to make a deal out of it obviously think badly of travellers and assume no one would want to be classed as one......that rascism

EyeballsintheSky · 11/08/2009 12:24

Norah, then you're right, in that situation, that is absolutey unneccesary. Not sure about your last sentence though...

ruddynorah · 11/08/2009 12:26

exactly. the description is totally irrelevant but the tale teller feels it necessary to describe the person as if it qualifies their story.

same with the traveller. why say 'traveller' why describe her as such.

'there is someone struggling to use the pump'

or

'there is a traveller woman struggling to use the pump'

BrieVanDerKamp · 11/08/2009 12:26

Ruddy........so we can only assume not only was the woman "traveller" but she must have benn black/asian too.

Cos like you say ""when no 'description' is offered, the customer is white""

BrieVanDerKamp · 11/08/2009 12:28

So do you have any Asians working with you??

Do they say "I've got an Asian lady..."

Or do they say white

LovelyTinOfSpam · 11/08/2009 12:28

But how did he know she was a traveller

BrieVanDerKamp · 11/08/2009 12:30

how is anyone supposed to know how he knew, we'll have to just assume that he "Knew"

EyeballsintheSky · 11/08/2009 12:31

That's right Brie. The only questionable thing said in the op was by the op herself

"Oh and travellers/roma/gypsies are a recognised ethnic group so that is racism, before people start talking about travellers being thieves/troublemakers!"

Who mentioned thieves or troublemakers? That was an might think that.

ruddynorah · 11/08/2009 12:31

one asian. he doesn't ring me with irrelevant descriptions.

FioFioFio · 11/08/2009 12:34

and how could she have stolen the fuel? she did not know how to use the pump and all the staff were on their tea break!

LovelyTinOfSpam · 11/08/2009 12:34

Because how he knew is v relevant.

If he knew because he knew the family or the person then that's one thing.

If he assumed she was a traveller based on something else - the type of van she had or something - then that is very different.

My point is that saying someone is a traveller as a descriptive term isn't the same as saying someone is black or asian - as you can't tell if someone is a traveller by looking at them.

BrieVanDerKamp · 11/08/2009 12:35

It so ridculous how people go all over the top to prove they're not rascist, that actually in the end that is kind of rascism. All OK so long as no one say's asian/traveller/black, but it's OK to say white all the time,

To me that say's that most of the people on this tread think that it better or something to be white so it's ok to be called white, but don't call anyone else by their ethnicity

FioFioFio · 11/08/2009 12:36

she could have been an electrician. I have heard many stories about electricians being unable to operate these new fan dangle pay as you go pumps and there is apparently a rumour that plumbers are the same

ruddynorah · 11/08/2009 12:38

you're missing the point.

it's WHEN those descriptions are used.

if relevant, fine. most of the time it's totally irrelevant but used as if it somehow better explains the story and offers further insight to the listener.

BrieVanDerKamp · 11/08/2009 12:39

Spam, actually sometimes you can, and I'm not saying that as a racist, I'm saying it because actually sometimes it is possible to tell what ethnicity someone is by looking at them, maybe he'd spoken to her.

But you're still going on about it like being called a traveller is a bad thing and this poor woman should have been called it!!

Why is it bad to call someone a traveller......you must have a problem with them then to think people would not want to be called a traveller

BrieVanDerKamp · 11/08/2009 12:40

shouldn't have been called it

LovelyTinOfSpam · 11/08/2009 12:42

My MIL saying "There were some kids making a lot of noise on the bus, some black girls, not that them being black has anything to do with it, but, you know..." is certainly racist. It's teh way she lowers her voice slightly when she says black and rolls her eyes a bit. She certainly never bothers describing the people involved if they are white. In fact she never bothers mentioning it when white kids are noisy on the bus (and surely sometimes they must be).

Most people can tell the difference between someone using a word as a description and when they are being nasty.

LovelyTinOfSpam · 11/08/2009 12:43

I don't see how you can tell someone is a traveller by looking at them is all.

mayorquimby · 11/08/2009 12:45

"as you can't tell if someone is a traveller by looking at them.
"

well actually quite often you can, in ireland anyway, or at least have an idea. like most ethnic groups they have certain features and then they have a distinctive accent so if you heard them speak you could know quite easily without having to be told.

Gateau · 11/08/2009 12:45

I'm afraid it's your desperate attempt to be so anti-racist that's sad, OP.
Waht if the woman at the pump had been Scottish and the man had said "That Scottish woman over there..." etc etc
Would that have been racist too?
I think not; it's a description and a description only. Get a grip and go find out what RACISM is.

EyeballsintheSky · 11/08/2009 12:48

I totally agree that there is a lot of casual racism about and Spam and Norah's examples are all too common. But I'm not convinced that the man in the op was.

LovelyTinOfSpam · 11/08/2009 12:50

Well it depends where you live.

Around here people would be guessing based on appearance. They would not "know", they would be making assumptions based on nasty stereotypes.

I was trying to get at whether the OP had any idea why the man said it. As if it was the latter reason, then that is nasty.

bruffin · 11/08/2009 13:10

"I'm afraid it's your desperate attempt to be so anti-racist that's sad, OP."

Well said Gateau

Original poster
ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 11/08/2009 13:12

Goodness me how interesting. I'll answer the first questions I saw - I didn't need to help her as she had found someone from asda to help. The three people in the cars in front of me could have helped but didn't - I couldn't see what was going on, that's why I got out of my car, if I had seen her struggling at the pump I would have offered to help, as it was, she walked back to her van while I was asking the man, and drove off.

I don't know how he knew she was a traveller. Maybe she wasn't. She had dreadlocks and a van - maybe to some people that means you are automatically a traveller

It wasn't as simple as pointing out the only black person in a group of white people. There was no need to say she was a traveller, white, black or anything else. Throwing in the person's ethnicity, especially when ascribing negative behaviour, is casually racist. Eg 'there were a group of kids on the bus causing trouble' cf 'there were a group of black kids on the bus causing trouble'. The second ascribes a value judgement to their ethnicity - as if being black was connected to the bad behaviour. Likewise 'there were a lovely group of black teenagers on the bus behaving impeccably' is also casually racist - implying that they were lovely despite being black. That would be the same if the person had said white - but people rarely do being that white is the 'default' ethnicity.

I'm quite surprised by this comment Gateau -
'I'm afraid it's your desperate attempt to be so anti-racist that's sad, OP.'

I'm not desperate, I'm not 'trying to be anti-racist', I am anti-racist and am calling out (in a cowardly way, I didn't say it to his face) racism when I see it. It is not only a description - it is an unecessary description that ascribes a value judgement to the ethnicity of the woman involved.

OP posts:
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