To be horrified that you can get homepathic treatments on the NHS

[brightonlad]

It seems extraordinary that with the NHS experiencing major funding problems and people being turned down for treatments on the grounds of cost that we're paying for people to have this kind of therapy.
If you read the theory behind it it's obviously bogus and the results of all the trials that have been done have consistently shown it to be no better than placebo.
The only way to justify it that I can see is as a form of faith healing and I wouldn't expect my GP to tell me to see my Priest least of all make a generous donation to the roof fund.

but all medications have range of efficacy.and some will have contraindications for some but not all.

there is no magic fix it all medicine

parents guilty of manslaughter chosing homeopathy over medicine stupid adherence to homeopathy killed their child. Thomas Sam, a homeopath, and his wife, Manju Sam, are standing trial in an Australian court for manslaughter by gross criminal negligence. They allowed their 9 month old child to die from complications of severe eczema. According to reports, their daughter, Gloria, was healthy at birth. But at 4 months old she developed a skin rash, which became progressively worse. Sam decided to treat the eczema with homeopathic treatments ? which means not to treat it at all. He sought advice from other homeopaths and naturopaths.

He also refused to follow the advice of the child?s pediatrician to take her to skin specialist to get more aggressive treatment. As a result Gloria?s eczema worsened. Her skin became thin and cracked, resulting in infections, and eventually septicemia and death. Standard medical treatments could have saved her right up until days before her death.

The difference between homeopathic "drugs" and the more chancy neurological drugs is that the latter has to be tested properly with double-blind trials etc. If there's no evidence of the drug having any beneficial effect then it doesn't get licensed for sale. That's not to say that it's 100% effective for everyone, but it is saying that a properly constructed, monitored and vetted study has shown some beneficial effects for a reasonable population.

I agree that the precise mechanisms for how many neurologically-active drugs work (or don't) is not always clearly understood. The human brain is so hugely complex and with so many different neurochemicals sloshing around that it's not easy to pin-point "chemical A goes in here and it has effect X over there". On the other hand, neurological drugs do at least contain some chemicals that are neurologically active. Homeopathic remedies don't.

By the way, I think there have been deaths from homeopathy, due to the patients deciding to trust sugar pills rather than getting proper medical advice and treatment.

mr and mrs manju guilty of manslaughter over daughter's eczema death. a treatable condition ignored and allowed to deteriorate

homeopathy can harm

No time to read the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned that there is a USD 1 million reward outstanding for anyone who proves that homeopathy works?

That nobody has yet claimed the reward should shine a light for homeopathy fans.

It wasn't the homeopathy that killed her.

The parents allowed her condition to go downhill without trying any other form of treatment. Something most parents wouldn't do, no matter how much they trusted alternative remedies.

This is a one-off case and doesn't prove that "homeopathy can harm" imo.

Homeopathy is much like prayer - There is a definite feel-good factor for believers, a psychological help, and a placebo effect. However, there is absolutely no real physiological benefit and no rational basis to expect any.

given homeopathy has no active ingredients,it didnt kill.what did kill was the stupid adherence to quackery and mumbo jumbo

there have been other cases too,of refusing medicine and child died or v unwell.preferring quacks to common sense

My personal experience is that homeopathy has been helpful to my health and my family's health but I wouldn't expect to get it on the NHS.

But I think the problem with NHS funding isn't what's available on the NHS and what isn't but the expectation that doctors and drugs and surgery can give us good health. I don't believe a doctor (or a homeopath) can give me good health, I think it's 99% down to a combination of genes, lifestyle, personal choices and dumb luck and doctors have an influence over the remaining 1%. ie not much.

Yes it is true that many medicines are not fully understood, but they aren't completely faith based. We might not understand the mechanisms precisely, but we have educated guesses, we understand the background and the structures and more. And drugs can not work, or work too much, can harm and can kill. But they can also treat and save and cure.
Homeopathy can do none of those things. They are sugar pills and vials of water. They are nothing more than the emperors new clothes. They are anti-science, anti-logical, mumbo jumbo quackery of the highest order. Believe in it if you want, spend your money on it, its none of my business. But spending public money on it when people die from being denied actual proper treatments which have been proven to save lives? NO!

"There is a definite feel-good factor for believers, a psychological help, and a placebo effect. However, there is absolutely no real physiological benefit and no rational basis to expect any."

If we say something has a 'placebo effect' it is not the same as saying that the person who uses it experiences only an imaginary improvement in symptoms. The placebo effect can and is often responsible for clinically measurable improvement in symptoms.

In my own case homeopathic remedies were very helpful with nausea, helpful enough to enable me to eat and keep food down. As far as I'm concerned this can be counted as a 'physiological benefit'.

Exactly, it's not the money that bothers me so much, just that it seems fundamentally wrong in a supposedly advanced society, to be putting official faith in something that's so obviously bollocks.

It's primitive mumbo jumbo - a medicine that relies on spanking water ten times (not nine or eleven) is anything other than the sort of witch doctory that people were following centuries ago.

People obviously do still go for mumbo jumo, the TV programmes about UFOs and ghosts are proof of this, but endorsing it officially is shamefully primitive.

YANBU

It's outrageous and it's that twat HRH price of wales fault, same reason why there's so much neo georgian horrendous new build architecture. He's a devotee. He also failed all his o-levels (maybe exaggerating here - but he didn't get an A in Biology)

I happen to be friends with the wife of a homeopathic doctor, she keeps suggesting i try it. How to you break it to someone that you think their husbands job is about as legitamate as the bastard son of Nell Gwyn???

anyway - i always want to ask. 'if homeopathy is so good, how come your kids are so snot-nosed and you are covered in eczema?

Someguy - I understand that all rigorous scientific research disproves the view that homeopathy works, but have experienced relief from quite distressing symptoms from using it. I know a good number of other people who've used homeopathy who are similarly informed who'd say the same. What is your response to those of us who've found benefit from using these treatments? Are we gullible fools? I don't understand how or why it works and I'm really not that bothered - I just want relief from my symptoms.

There's a response to that here sabire:

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-496612/The-case-homeopathy.html

Homoepathy appeared to have sorted out my heavy periods to a point where they are manageable. I didn't want surgery or and the drugs prescribed gave me terrible side effects.

I have also had a very bizzare and amazing reaction to another homeopathic remedy.

I am still mildly sceptical and don't think that that's a problem but have had conditions which conventional medicine just can't seem to deal with.

Some people like to make themselves feel secure and certain about life esp medicine by quoting absolutes and putting their faith in science and rationality (and I used the word 'faith' here ironically. I just can't go along with that line of thinking. I find it's often a very male way of thinking.

Relying solely (NB solely) on stats, trials and empirical studies to form a viewpoint to my mind is lunacy. You will find this often used for conditions like thyroid where you will be told you are normal (according to the test results) but you know that you are not well.

I like to keep an open mind about things and would question conventional medicine in the same way that others question alternative medicine.

Clearly the parents who denied their daughter treatment are loons, any responsible professional homeopath would not behave like that.

Brighton lad - are you a final year medic or junior medical journo or similar? (suspicious emoticon)

"The Society of Homeopaths, their largest professional body in Europe, is holding a symposium on the treatment of Aids next month, featuring the work of Peter Chappell, a man who makes ridiculous claims about his ability to solve the Aids epidemic using his homeopathic pills called "PC Aids", and some special music he has encoded with homeopathic remedies."

Seriously? This is the kind of "medicine" you want to believe in? The mind boggles....

Placebos have a real and demonstrable effect - look at any placebo-controlled trial. You don't get the people randomised to the drug getting better and the placebo arm staying exactly the same.

Evidently the conventional medicines you took for your heavy periods did have an effect on you, albeit including side-effcts.

As the homeopathic medicine is indistinguishable from a placebo, the effect it had on you could be the placebo effect, natural regression (perhaps your periods have got lighter over time), the effect of the real medicine you took, a belief that the homeopathic remedy has helped convincing you that things aren't as bad as they were (a sort of reverse 'man flu' effect), etc.

I like to keep an open mind about things and would question conventional medicine in the same way that others question alternative medicine.

Really? Conventional medicine has brought massive improvements in life expectancy, saved us from numerous diseases that used to be rife, and has so much evidence showing that it works that you'd frankly have to be bonkers to deny it, but you'd question it, and instead go for some mumbo jumbo about spanked a bit.

Your choice, I've no objection, just not on the NHS please.

Someguy, sincity said she would question conventional medicine. Not deny that it works or has relieved suffering.

Are you saying no-one should question medicine? That's hardly a scientific approach. If no-one questioned medicine, we wouldn't know that stomach ulcers are caused by H pylori rather than acid...

Also, you can't attribute increases in life expectancy purely to medicine or surgery. Public health measures such as sanitation have played a large part in this.

Niceguy you twisted my argument to suit your own black and white views because I didn't say that I turn my back on conventional medicine - in fact I first only turned to homeopathy when conventional medicine has failed.

hmm the effects the drugs to reduce heavy periods had were to reduce the flow but the flip side of this was to also experience heavy congestion. Made me feel like shit quite frankly

As to the placebo effect if that can result in reduced flow (which is measureable) then how fantastic is that. All I can say is that seeing a homeopath over time has enabled me to function during my period rather than not be able to leave the house. Anaemia also improved. I have fibroids and generally flow does not improve with age it gets heavier (so the research says LOL)

Of course I appreciate and don't deny the strides that conventional medicine has made and will use it on occasions but what I won't do is blindly accept it and what's on offer for more complex problems. And of course conventional medicine

All I am saying is that homepathy or similar can have it's place in medicine. I like to look at things holistically rather than single symptom. Your average GP is just not trained to look at symptoms in the round and connect them.

My dentist had not even heard of arnica - I find that staggering.

IME some medical professionals just don't do joined up thinking - that's what I question

So I was right, then.

fwiw, someone recommended homeopathic graphite for my eczema, which never did go into remission. I looked up the remedy and found it was indicated for:

"people who cry at sad movies."

Since I don't do that, I decided to stick with the steroids, which don't specify on the label how I should react to certain films, and work in a genuine and reliable manner.