To be horrified that you can get homepathic treatments on the NHS

[brightonlad]

It seems extraordinary that with the NHS experiencing major funding problems and people being turned down for treatments on the grounds of cost that we're paying for people to have this kind of therapy.
If you read the theory behind it it's obviously bogus and the results of all the trials that have been done have consistently shown it to be no better than placebo.
The only way to justify it that I can see is as a form of faith healing and I wouldn't expect my GP to tell me to see my Priest least of all make a generous donation to the roof fund.

Homeopathy is not "alternative medicine" though - it is not medicine at all. It is nothing.

You could tip a handful of various homeopathic pills onto a table, mix them around, and no-one, not a medic, nor a researcher, nor a lab technician, nor a so-called homeopathic expert practictioner would ever be able to distinguish one from the other ever again. Any analysis would reveal them all to be identical, ineffective sugar pills.

How can that sit well with those who feel there may be something in homeopathy?

Unintentionally hilarious article in Telegraph recently with Annabel Croft slagging off conventional medecine and swearning that putting 8 pilules of turmeric under her tongue thrice daily had cured her [self diagnosed] ovarian cysts.

Very funny snotty letters back from medics.

Reiki. Yeah, what a load of absolute bollocks.

Riven - I'm not a one man journal database but it's a study that was cited in Ben Goldacre's book on the subject.
Duchesse - Over prescription of anti biotics is also a big problem that needs addressing, I would never question that.

Homeopathic treatments are just water! They've been shown to be emperors new clothes in controlled medical trials, these aren't prejudices they're facts.

duchesse - the incompetence of one consultant, whilst unfortunate, does not justify the sanctioning of an entirely bogus cure, that's a problem but a completely irrelevant one.

"Controlled medical trials" run by pharmaceuticals companies, yes..

Well, from what Riven was saying epilepsy treatment doesn't seem to have come on much since the 70s, so not just one consultant. And phenobarbitone (which is what she was on) seems to have been a fairly standard response to epilepsy in the 70s and 80s.

duchesse - no, controlled medical trials run by universities, government agencies, research institutions as well. Also if a trial is accurately run with a completely open methodology and transparent reasoning who cares about who's doing the funding. This is why we have established protocols and best practices for running clinical trials.

duchesse - you're arguing from a completely random and unrelated case, I'm not saying epilepsy treatment is flawless, epilepsy is a tricky syndrome with a lot of causes so it's very hard to treat. My Mother's epilepsy has always been controlled and been treated with drugs that have progressed over the last thirty years.
That's all irrelevant though because you're just venting ill-thought prejudice against the medical establishment, not engaging with my argument that homeopathy is insufficently proven to be offered on the NHS.

What does that mean? He's a very good writer and an intelligent man. He doesn't so much as mention a number without citing the study that it came from - as well as how reliable that study is, I really can't see how you can have a problem with him.

Phenobarbitone is not an antipsychotic.
It is still in (limited) use in the UK in patients with epilepsy.

Excellent point VLC. When pressed, believers in homeopathy can't even attempt to explain why they think it works, "it just does".
THe more you dilute a substance, the more powerful it is, the most powerful having none of the substance left, just the water holding a memory of the substance? Seriously, otherwise rational people believe this? How?
I honestly don't understand it. Its on a par with prayer healing and crystals iMO.

Brightonlad - you might put it like that, I wouldn't dare! Whatever, it seems to work. For a group of patients that where really isn't much effective (in terms of making a difference to the quality of life) treatment around. These people are genuinely ill, with conditions such as diabetes that can be disabling, but conventional treatment has run its course. Important thing is this was all done in conjunction with the patients' GPs - what they call integrated medicine.

arolf - there seems to be more and more evidence that SSRIs don't necessarily have much impact. Not terribly surprising - newer drugs always come with earth-shattering trials proving they are the best thing since penicillin, then after ten years further trials show they are little better than placebo - it's a recognised effect (I used to work down the corridor from expert reviewers of medical evidence).

Has something to do with publication bias, i.e. studies that show positive effects are more likely to be published in the journals, and a whole range of other factors, too.

The difference between homeopathy and prayer healing etc is that homeopathy is trying to give itself scientific credibility rather than being honest about the fact that it is faith healing. The power of prayer is far more honest than that.

edam - According to all the decent trials it doesn't work any better than placebo. That's my problem!

Actually if you look on reputable databases of medical trials, you will find a dozen or so decent-ish ones on homeopathy. Out of those dozen or so, some show little effect, a slightly bigger proportion show a positive effect, a few show no effect. It's down to the interpretation of the individual looking at those results whether you say that means 'homeopathy has little effect' or 'homeopathy works'. But to claim they show 'homeopathy doesn't work' would be stretching the truth.

IIRC - and possibly not, I'm not at work right now - that holds true if you look at Cochrane.

What is needed are more, larger, well-designed trials, obviously.

Have a look at the Northern Ireland study, it used to be on the NI Dept of Health and SS website.

On a slightly different note, I am always amazed at how much faith people put in conventional medicine in general. Can anyone tell me the names of ANY which don't
cause other side-effects when taken? It seems we will ingest any ol' shite on the word of a so-called professional. A lot of drugs can actually do more harm than good.

Take the Tamiflu nonsense. We're all encouraged to take it, then we're told 50% of kids have reacted very badly to it, then we're told it doesn't actually cure the flu...it can (sometimes) reduce the time of suffering by about a day or so.

Why shouldn't other alternatives be just as viable?

My ds was badly burned 2 years ago and suffered panic attacks for months afterwards. A friend gave him a Reiki treatment and he hasn't had an attack since. I don't know what that's all about but our GP suggested ADs so I'm glad we opted for the "placebo".

Kaytee - I'm glad the placebo option worked for you but the whole point of "conventional medicine" as you call it is that it looks for the most effective treatment for a disorder for the largest number of people, there will always be side-effects and edge cases but you have to look at the tipping point. Would you rather take a 1 in 10,000 chance of something really bad happening if you do nothing or a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of something bad happening if you take a medication. It's all about playing odds, the studies are there to calculate the odds as accurately as possible.

As a rule I tend to be sceptical of this sort of thing. I'll give most things the time of day, however, I do like to see proof - as I grow older I tend towards empirical fact more and more.

However, I have a problem when it comes to homeopathy - and I realise that this is merely subjective and I realise that it's essentially no more than my own personal experience...but

This is my problem, I suffer from Crohns disease - have done for over twenty years. 15 years ago, I was in the middle of a fairly serious flare up. I was no more than 6 months out of major surgery. Before that I'd had what's called an elemental diet - basically I lived on liquid dietary supplements for 9 months to "rest" my bowels". It looked a certainty I was going in for more surgery. Someone suggested Homeopathy and a GP they knew who could help - I thought - shit - it's bullshit but what have I got to lose - £25 per hourly session.

The bottom line is - and I resist saying it "worked", but I did at that point that I saw the GP/homeopathist I went into remission - major remission. I haven't had any surgery since that point. I haven't needed special diets. I'm not cured, but I did get substantially better and remained so.

A friend of mine had a daughter who was ill - and someone suggested to them that they talk to me about homeopathy - and his argument was - but it's bullshit, if it did work, it's just a placebo effect.

And really know you know in a sense I can't argue with that... except I don't actually give a shit, if or why or how it may or may not have worked - something about going to see that guy changed the course of my disease and I got better as a result of making that decision.

My gut feeling is it was some kind of placebo effect - but hey what do I care at the end of the day - I got better. And whilst I'm not sure about funding it on the NHS, I'm much much less comfortable with people denying other people the opportunity to get better.

Sorry, haven't read the whole thread as have been busy elsewhere - so excuse me if I've missed a whole chunk of argument...

I get your point but it is still all about odds, as you say. Conventional medicine has it's place, imo, but I'd always try for a kinder, more natural way first, if possible.

At the end of the day any treatment which helps the patient to get better is all good in my book. I don't mind my taxes being spent on any kind of healing as long as it helps people (on whatever level). At least homeopathy doesn't have any side-effects

I do not believe that Homeopathy works and was pretty shocked when someone I knew took her (very young) children to a part of the world rife with Typhoid, Yellow Fever, Malaria etc with only a trip to the homeopath to protect them.

But on the whole I think if something helps someone with a severe illness (placebo or not) it should be supported where possible.

There is a lovely man who provides Reiki on the oncology ward where my DD was treated. She liked it, I liked it, she felt better after a session. She rarely felt better after anything. If she said she felt better after someone waved a flaming doughnut round her head whilst singing 'she'll be coming round the mountain' I would have wanted it supported.

Cancer is SHIT. Cancer treatment is SHIT. If something helps then bloody let it.

But I am humoungusly biased and not very balanced on this particular subject (the sould of objectivity on everything else of course)

The thing is, I learnt a lot about how non medical things can help when there is no cure, no convential hope. Smells, colours, comforts and even waving your hands round someone whilst listening to plinky plonky music.

Good on the NHS for using some of the money for this. The NHS is a great big black hole anyway. Money is wasted on all kids of mental things, things that have no positive affect whatsoever.

"kinder, more natural way" What does that even mean? It's the kind of meaningless jibber jabber that stops people engaging with non-mainstream medicine.

before I say YAB totally unreasonable because homeopathic medicine is a proven treatment for illness esp when used alongside modern medicine, what did you think they did at NHS Homeopathic Hospitals?

brightonlad - do you have any chronic conditions? I do. My medication gives me horrible side effects, including panic attacks and insomnia. I've found alternative therapies a god-send for relief of symptoms - I would have been suicidal without them at times I've felt so ill.

I think that if a treatment gives you relief from your symptoms and if you are aware of the research into its effectiveness (or non-effectiveness) but still find it helpful for your condition you should have access to it through the health service.