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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Parents that won't say the word "No", is it ridiculous to expect others to follow your rules?

136 replies

Confuzzeled · 26/07/2009 08:57

AIBU to think this "We don't say NO to ds, we try and encourage him to do something else." is ridiculous when you are in someone else's house and your child is breaking things?

My Mum has people staying who's ds has broken a whole load of things in the last 24 hours. They also aloud him to smear food into the carpet and he tried to pull the fire guard off (it's Scotland and it's been quite cold). While they calmly wave toys at him and encourage him to do something else, he's destroying the place. He's only 19 months and I don't think at that age you know the difference between right and wrong, he needs someone to say "NO, we don't pull the fire guard because you'll get hurt".

I think you should be able to bring your child up in the way that you think is best, but I don't think other people should suffer because of it. Not to mention it's dangerous.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Mummywannabe · 26/07/2009 20:38

Sorry but they are being really rude. It's up to them how they discipline their child but to allow a child to do these things in someone elses house is not on.

For what its worth i try to be positive with my DS (13 months) (tis the nursery nurse in me!) but do say NO when needed (actually 'uh uh' is the phrase i use). LIttle monster now points at the plugs/fire and says 'uh uh' and shakes his head!

PixiNanny · 26/07/2009 20:43

Humphrey: Sorry, I wasn't sure on the term and picked it up from further up the thread I knew that this type of parenting existed but wasn't sure on the name!

Though, maybe it is commonly misinterpreted by parents into what we are calling it, which is why people are under the impression that that is what unconditional parenting is (did that make sense?)

I am still curious though, whatever it's called, the parenting style of not saying no (ever in this case, as it is with some cases as we know), how would they justify accidents that may take the child, or somebody else, to A&E when it could have been prevented by the parent telling them to stop rather than letting them make their own mistakes in such a case?

I certainly understand allowing the child to make decisions and think about them, that makes perfect sense, but it's the idea of never setting boundaries that I can't get my head around.

Qally · 26/07/2009 21:04

This isn't Unconditional Parenting, though. I used to think it was ridiculous nonsense, if I'm honest, but now I've read the book (not really planning to apply it wholesale, but definitely a useful read) I actually agree with a great deal of it. It talks about how you have to say no so very often to a child, to stop them damaging themselves, others or objects, that you should perhaps consider when you're saying no as a reflex habit rather than for a good reason. Damaging someone else's property is a good reason! It discusses trying to be honest with a child who is old enough on why a no is being given. An example is where they want to watch something unsuitable and say all their friends are. A common (my own, if I'm honest) response is the old "would you jump off a cliff..." which is actually pretty silly, and the child knows it, even though they generally can't articulate why it's silly (because it's an irrelevant, dishonest and facile comparator). Agreeing that it might be quite hard to be left out and you're sorry about that, but you think some things are just too violent/adult for someone that child's age to watch, because they're learning about the world and their own place in it, is still "no". It's just a more honest one, and by being honest it actually treats the child better and makes it seem less like an arbitrary and unfair imposition. The answer's still the same.

A friend UP, and their ds wanted Coco Pops for breakfast. Which is basically junk food. They said no and explained why, but offered to buy the Coco Pops as a pudding after meals, like any other sugary crap. That was honest, definite, and yet allowed the child a compromise. I dunno about unconditional, but it seemed thoughtful. It also reinforced sugary crap being a treat food. The thing I do like about UP is that it addresses why the child is doing whatever it is doing, whether that's negative or positive. The theory is that rewards and punishments can train them to want the rewards and evade the punishments, rather than be rewarded by making their own lives easier or enjoying being a nicer person, and penalised by knowing they've hurt someone or made themselves unpopular, IMO. It makes more sense to make the rewards of a behaviour stem from that behaviour - nobody's going to be armed with a sticker chart or a naughty step when you screw up or succeed as an adult. And I don't buy that making a child howl in misery is going to make them feel remorseful about bad behaviour. When I was small it just made me miserable and filled with rage. I can't see that as especially useful in teaching a child better ways to behave. Interestingly, my mother has found it really helpful, too, as she said a lot of the antagonism and rigidity she thought she had to use to be a "good mother" felt absolutely wrong and seemed very counter-productive. She feels that UP makes sense to her, having brought 2 kids up as a single parent.

I think there's a gulf between UP, which tries to treat the child with respect and honesty, and where you try to model the kind of behaviour you hope they learn while encouraging them to understand the reasons why they should behave well, and bringing up a spoiled brat. Allowing your kid to trash someone else's property is the latter, and when they aren't even 2 how on earth are they meant to know any better, anyway? Surely removing them from the situation and then distracting is wise?

Qally · 26/07/2009 21:04

(Sorrt Pixi, X posted).

sherby · 26/07/2009 21:07

good post Qally

children do tend to tune out constant NO's and the 'because I said so' that often follows

Trixel · 26/07/2009 21:12

really interesting post Qally

sleeplessinstretford · 26/07/2009 21:14

i have always explained the reasons for the 'no' to my children-this seems like basic manners, if you just say 'no' then obviously they are going to ignore at some point. My sister (lazy ass) spends literally ages pointing out the ramifications of everything thing-which i think kids also ignore...it's a fine balance.

qwertpoiuy · 26/07/2009 21:15

I think this book could be about the type of parenting discussed in this thread.

A load of rubbish. My aunt never said no to her children and always believed in distracting the child rather than stopping them from doing something they shouldn't be doing. She had 7 of them, whenever they visited our house everything would be pulled apart or broken - they were nightmare visitors.

Referring back to this book, I read a review where she discusses bullying, that it is the brat child doing the bullying that needs love and consolation, not the poor victim! Personally I think she lives on cloud cuckoo land.

cornsillk · 26/07/2009 21:15

Minx of mancunia do you work for CAMHS then? What do you do?

Confuzzeled · 26/07/2009 21:17

It's good to have a real explanation of UP, would be good if someone could tell the SBIL & SSIL about it

OP posts:
mrsbean78 · 26/07/2009 21:35

Oh my God, that's the most stupid thing I've ever heard! I am a Speech and Language Therapist and children need to understand the meaning of the word 'no'. It is one of the earliest words kids understand FOR A REASON - it keeps them safe. A short, sharp 'no' is no different to a dog's warning bark and has undoubtedly stopped many a child from electrocuting/drowning/injuring themselves.

Also, 'that's going to get broken' is a long sentence that many young children will NOT understand. 'No' is simpler, more universal and more effctive.

I can not believe this tripe.

Mosschops30, I agree completely - children need to have boundaries. Life is NOT about following your own lead and not understanding others' rules. That may work in the context of one home, but at school and later at work, kids need to know that no means no.

PixiNanny · 26/07/2009 21:47

Thanks for explaining it Qally, np about x-posting I know it was explained before, but the detail makes it easier for me to take in.

Not having kids myself (I'm only 20 ffs ) I'm curious about this sort of stuff, not only to make me better in childcare (not just as a nanny, but as an instructor too) but also to give me some idea of ways I may deal with my own children in the future.

UP seems entirely fair enough, I can understand sticker charts and naughty steps, though this seems entirely understandable as well. I can imagine that at first it is difficult to implement as it does seem (IMO) a relatively new parenting technique, so there isn't personal experience of growing up like this for parents to use as a guide, but I can understand how it works to some extent, definately good if it works right?

sherby · 26/07/2009 22:09

But 'NO' offers them no explanation or reason for not doing something

It is going to get broken does

piscesmoon · 26/07/2009 22:29

'No' can offer an explanation, it is just a question of saying 'no because.......' rather than just 'no'.

JoeJoe1977 · 26/07/2009 22:39

We save the use of 'No' for when either DS is doing something that could harm themselves or someone else. Always followed by an explanation why what they are doing isn't advisable!

If they are saying/doing something which is not good manners then they get taken aside and given a quiet talk about why they shouldn't do that, with an emphasis on why it would be better to do things another way.

I don't know if there is a name or title to the way we do things, but it suits us.

To answer the OP (eventually) YANBU, if the child is putting themselves or others in danger by their actions, then they need to be told clearly that what they are doing is unacceptable. Distraction is useful if you are in Tesco trying to stop a child pulling food off the shelves, but not if they are going to put their hand on a hot fireguard.

Qally · 26/07/2009 22:52

A small child responds to tone of voice though, not actual words. They do that before they have language at all. Fear and urgency has an effect when an endlessly repeated "no" doesn't.

Pixi, I agree. I think any assertion that one way to parent is the only acceptable one is mistaken - after all, if it suits a family and their kids thrive with it, where's the problem? I do recommend a read of UP, though. It's very thought provoking and discusses some really interesting research. It was the sort of read where you start by impatiently thinking he's talking nonsense, remember back to when you were the child in question, and then suddenly realise he may have a point... I do think people can get very focused on wanting a "good" child, where that means compliant, and yet often what they want in an adult is resourcefulness, negotiation skills, independence and moral courage. Asking how best to achieve that is a worthwhile question, I think, whether you agree with the conclusions or not. It's good to be made to think your preconceptions over and to have your basic beliefs challenged, even if you end up with them reaffirmed as right for you.

Qally · 26/07/2009 22:53

I mean a VERY small child; pre-verbal, or very early in learning language.

simplesusan · 26/07/2009 23:01

I always said one word to my children when they went near the fireguard- Burnie!

I picked it up from my cousin and it always, without exception, made them aware of the danger and lead them to retreat from the fire/fireguard.

With regards to the up I think the best reward a child can have is to know that their parent loves them and is proud of them. The reverse is true ie a look of disapproval or withdrawn bodylanguage to signify disapproval. Although this might only work with older children.

simplesusan · 26/07/2009 23:04

Qually- I agree about the tone of voice, I would always say "Burnie" in a very- "Get away from that fire-NOW!" Kind of voice

piscesmoon · 27/07/2009 07:34

Body language says a lot too. You can say 'No -Grandma doesn't want you to touch that' very gently, but your whole body language conveys that it hasn't occurred to you that they would do something Grandma doesn't want. You largely get what you expect with DCs and if you expect them to ignore you- they will.

Confuzzeled · 27/07/2009 10:10

I totally agree about the tone in which you say something. My dd will react instantly if I have fear or urgency in my voice.

But the people we are talking about speak in soft baby tones to their ds. I find it sugary and annoying at the best of times and firmly believe you should speak to a child in the same voice you use for everyone else.

I think they are saying that they're doing UP but it sounds nothing like what people have posted here. I think they're a pair of total fanny's and their poor ds will suffer socially in the long run. My poor Mum is counting down the days till they leave.

OP posts:
katiestar · 27/07/2009 12:58

A child of 18m is programmed with a strong , irresistibkle urge to explore ,for very good developmental reasons.He doesn't see a cabinet door and think 'oh I mustn't touch that because using excess force might detach the handle which would then upset my grandmother' He wants ,NEEDS to know what it feels like and to explore every possibility of what can be done with it.
There is a world of difference between taking a toddler to someone else's house for an hour or so and being a house guest there.You can't just say 'no' 'no' 'no for a whole week or so .You DO need to find interesting things to distract him with and not the same old toys he's bored with.And to make the house child friendly for example put furniture in front of fragile cabinets and definitely the fireguard needs fixing securely to the wall that is plain dangerous.

Mumcentreplus · 27/07/2009 13:20

I repeat ..you are responsible for your child and it's actions..no one else..if I had to say No or distract for a week then I would you can't impose yourself/ your child on others...

sandyballs · 27/07/2009 13:34

I don't understand this whole 'not saying no' business, some things are non negotiable, regardless of age.

Reminds of a trip to Brighton a few weeks ago. We were by the kiddies paddling pool which was full of kids of all ages. A tiny boy of about 2 wandered up with a big stone in his hand, followed by dad. The boy wanted to lob the stone into the paddling pool and dad was saying 'I'd rather you didn't do that, somebody might get hurt. I'm going to leave the decision to you. I want you to think about what could happen and put the stone down' . He lobbed the stone and it hit a little girl on the head.

HerBeatitude · 27/07/2009 15:01

God I wouldn't spend a week saying no... no... no to my DC's.

What a horrible way to spend your time, why would anyone want to do that?

I'd just go home.