To cringe at this article (free natural birth)

[boogiewoogie]

I couldn't help but feel but also sad when I read this article.

For a start, whilst sexual intercourse is often a necessary prerequisite although not always for birth to take place, giving birth itself is not a sexual experience!

She also says that a free birth is an open celebration of love and understanding but surely there are other ways and isn't having a child that has been conceived through love a celebration itself?

At the end she says that she has a fantastic relationship with this child and that it is different from her first therefor implying that her relationship with the first is inferior.

Am I also being naive in thinking that birth plans do not always go as planned? Okay, perhaps some of this is probably sour grapes but I am happy with the natural births that I had as they required little assistance.

The birth of course should be a pleasant experience and whilst it is nice to hear that she has had an amazing experience given her first birth, I just feel that a lot of women already feel stigmatised for having C sections and that articles such as this puts a lot of pressure on mothers to have a certain type of birth amongst other things to be a "model parent" whatever that may be.

Oh dear, I am sorry that it's caused such a reaction.

Not everyone has called her names, I only thought that this would make quite a good discussion. If you want to delete this thread and report it to mumsnet then please feel free to do so. In the mean time, I shall retreat to the recipes and adult fiction threads.

If describing a good experience to someone who had bad one causes upset we are all really fucked aren't we? Someone desribing their happy marriage is going to upset someoe who has been through a nasty divorce. No-one would ever open their mouths unless they had something to moan about

I did take issue with the implications of what she said about her relationship with her DDs. But that was all.

massive difference between birthing at home, in a clean , warm, safe home with a birth pool and soft lighting than having to give birth in a dirty, cold , bare place because there is no choice.

i still do not agree with freebirthing, but i think it is important women who have achieved their dream birth are allowed to talk about it. even if it is a bit smug.

MICHKIT - rubbish, it's not judgmental at all. She did not once say, oh I would never have an epi! She merely related her two experiences and how one made her want something different.

"she goes on about 'WE' all the time. That's generalising isn't it?"

she's referring to her husband. So what if she feels the need to include her husband so deeply in the experience.

What the world would be like if more people did.....

I found long vowel sounds very helpful in labour as well.

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooh fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck was a good one

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepiduuuuuuuuuuuuuuuraaaaaaaaaaaaal was another

I'm not sure that what she said about her elder daughter was cruel. Many mothers experience different levels of bonding with different children. Sometimes it's easier than others I expect. Just because she has found it different, doesn't mean she loves the first child less. Maybe she just works a lot harder at it. Maybe they clash more. Who knows? All she said was that the relationship is different. It is reading too much into her comment to assume that it is a bad relationship.

I think the 'pressure to have a perfect birth' is something we can blame jealousy on. I don't want a perfect birth, but I'd really like it to be happy and safe. What's wrong with that? And what's wrong with someone achieving it?

I think the problem with the article is not with the woman or with how delighted she is about her birth experience or whatever (although I will admit that I found it nauseating in tone and definitely had a wee snurk at the vowel sounds bit - but each to their own). My problem is with the context and the bloody newspaper and the editorial team.

If it had just been some woman posting about her birth experience and that kind of stuff on her blog or something, then it'd simply have been a positive birth story (albeit one that isn't to my personal taste). But it is an article in a national newspaper. Even if it was published in the 'First Person' section, it doesn't change the fact that newspapers have an agenda in choosing what kind of articles they publish. We all know that choices surrounding childbirth are far from neutral issues (and the kinds of stories that the newspapers have picked up on in the last few weeks illustrate this wonderfully). There is a definite moralising and judgmental tone to much of the reporting of these issues. So, I can't help but read an article about the wonders of 'natural' 'freebirthing' within the context of all the other crap the newspapers peddle.

I can completely see why some women are upset about this and feel that it makes out that they are inferior for 'failing' to achieve some mythical 'perfect' birth experience. This isn't really anything to do with this particular woman, but with the way in which childbirth is reported (and made into a moral issue) in the press more generally.

In this respect, I have to agree with the previous poster who complained that the Independent is at least as far up its own arse as the bloody Guardian.

"'complete bitch'"

that was me and wasn't anything to do with her birth, as I have already said I don't find the article smug. I called her a complete bitch because she VERBALISED in a NATIONAL newspaper that she has a fantastic relationship with her second DD but not her first. Now I'm sure a lot of mothers prefer one child over another but they don't say it aloud to their friends, and most are probably ashamed of the fact. She decides to tell the general public in a format that the DD will probably have access to in years time. In fact I would go so far as to say calling her a complete bitch isn't even an opinion, it's a fact.

Balloonslayer .
Interesting piece of research out this week suggesting that swearing can help pain tolerance. This makes me feel better about the mooing/fishwife swearing I was doing during DS2s birth, compared to my crappy attempts at yogic calm during DS1 's.

Monkeyfeathers - I tend to think that birth is reported more often in the media/news with mothers having interventions or birthing in a hospital. Natural birthing is just not reported as normal usually and as you can see women get all up in arms when it is.
Should women who have had c-sections just keep it for their blogs? Why only women with easy births?

When was the last time Eastenders had a homebirth? (well, I don't watch EE but I'm guessing it doesn't happen as often as a hospital birth) IYSWIM.

She also says that 'this was a healing experience for my whole family'. Yeah, what a bitch... .

Well I was more commenting on the stuff that comes up literally all the time on the Guardian website, which almost never fails to turn childbirth into a moral issue. And also the ways in which research about choices in childbirth (especially epidurals) are reported as some kind of moral panic.

I wasn't necessarily saying that women needed to keep their childbirth experiences to their blogs. Although I suspect that this would be a far more appropriate place for personal birth stories than the Independent. Call me cynical, but it seems like pretty lazy journalism really. In fact, I'm not even sure it counts as proper 'journalism' at all. I suspect that commissioning some personal anecdotes is far easier than actually going out and investigating the facts. To be honest, I feel the same way about the stuff that's come up this weekend/today about epidurals; it's far easier to take a (dubious) moral angle than it is to go about explaining the scientific evidence and actually producing some news. Instead, what we get are articles written to provoke (very) heated debate using the comments feature, but without the benefit of any evidence.

In any case, I do think that 'natural' birthing gets a lot of coverage. Maybe not in the the entertainment media (I also don't watch Eastenders, so I have no idea what goes on in it), but certainly the broadsheet press love to comment on this stuff. And, tbh, I despise the term 'natural birth' in that it necessarily implies that any other kind of birth experience is 'unnatural' (which comes with an implicit moral judgement).

"I think the point that OP was making is very relevant. There is a lot of pressure on mums to be 'perfect' and that includes having the 'perfect' birth."

Really?

I don't think so at all. I never felt any 'pressure' from anyone to have a 'perfect' birth. All the pressure was the other way - to have loads of pain relief and interventions.

I think there's nothing wrong with saying to people in a national newspaper what a great birthing experience you had. Good for her. It's nice to hear happy news, even if it doesn't affect you personally.
I wouldn't say it was smug, it is just someone's account of how they dealt with the birth. I'm sure most women compare the births they've had.
Personally I wouldn't opt for free birthing, I'd rather be in hospital where I can be 'buzzer happy' and have someone there to help if something goes wrong.

i agree with that sabire. few people could understand why i was so committed to a VBAC, when i could have a planned c.s and get my hair done the day before seriously.

going against the grain and wanting a home birth, water birth , no pain relief, will, on the whole, get you a whole lot of funny looks

i agree that this thread is nasty for no good reason. seems like once the bashing started it was hard not to keep piling in.

thanks to people like harpsi and sabire to input some level headedness to counter the lunacy on here. I don't have the time or desire to do so.

with MN sometimes.

hear hear foxy

"few people could understand why i was so committed to a VBAC, when i could have a planned c.s and get my hair done the day before seriously."

To be honest, I think this comment is at least as judgmental as any of the comments you've been complaining about.

My problem is with all the bloody moralising that goes on around people's choices (where there are actually any choice) in childbirth. I don't think it's necessarily fair to be nasty about this particular woman (and I agree that many people have been), but I think it's fair enough to criticise the newspaper and the tone of the whole (public) debate. Basically, I think the anger is misplaced.

Monkey Feathers - I agree with this

"I suspect that commissioning some personal anecdotes is far easier than actually going out and investigating the facts. To be honest, I feel the same way about the stuff that's come up this weekend/today about epidurals; it's far easier to take a (dubious) moral angle than it is to go about explaining the scientific evidence and actually producing some news. Instead, what we get are articles written to provoke (very) heated debate using the comments feature, but without the benefit of any evidence."

completely.

But more often than not on this (and other) messageboards, and in the media, mothers who talk about their easy childbirth experiences or who have made the decision to
experience birth with no drugs or interventions (I didn't use 'natural' there, see? ) are always held up as being smug, bragging, crazy, pressurizing or making others feel inferior.
It isn't on.
And although I agree that this can be viewed as lazy journalism, I think women should own up and look at their own prejudices and stop putting those down who are different to themselves.

i am sorry if you think i am being judgemental

teh face was not that i am judging the planned c.s. but that people who knew me, would have thought that being able to have my hair done the day before a c.s would hae been a priority for me.

The tone of the piece (whether the hippy twat wrote it herself or whether it was subbed to make her sound twattier than she is) is classic smug-hippy-natural-is-wonderful bullshit. What the silly cow doesn't seem to get is that she was LUCKY to have had a relatively uncomplicated birth - it's not a sign of her moral superiority, her ideological purity or her special fanjo. Other women who do exactly what she does, down to the vowel sounds and bearded DP, might end up with a crash C-section or even a dead baby due to ordinary complications that weren't picked up in time.
Medical advances save lives. Yes, plenty of women could give birth without pain relief and both they and their babies would survive, but there is a lot that can go wrong during birth that, with swift intervention, does no severe damage but, without assistance, can have awful consequences (death, disablement, brain damage...). SOmetimes stuff goes wrong no matter what we do, of course, and people are entitled to make their own judgements WRT what risks they are prepared to take, but the anti-science, covered-in-shit-and-happy-about-it mentality that the original piece is riddled with, always needs addressing.

hear hear SGB. I think that needed to be said.

SGB - How does she not get it when her first birth was, in her words, traumatic? maybe she understands exactly how lucky she was.

You are the one who sounds like the jealous silly twatted cow. :D

The vast majority of births are uncomplicated by special circumstances. It is unlucky NOT to have that experience. Even the NHS recognises that over-medicalisation has unfortunately resulted in dangerous 'cascades of intervention' which result in greater morbidity and mortality in many cases. Current NICE advice is for the minimum of intervention, for home birth and for the radical review of several commonplace obstetric practices, which have to date received no research (e.g. electro-fetal-monitoring and episiotomy).

My own choice is to birth with medical assistance, if it becomes necessary. But do not assume that birth is naturally a dangerous process. When difficulties happen (and I am speaking from personal experience) that is NOT the norm for the majority of women.

We do women a disservice when we allow ourselves to be brainwashed by the medicalisation of birth, into believing that birth is an unnatural event which must usually be managed by doctors. The reality is quite the opposite.

HollyBunda: I agree with you that women who want to share their positive or easy experiences of childbirth shouldn't be judged or shouted down either. I think that there's fault on both sides and, yes, women should stop putting each other down over this. I just don't think it should be a moral issue at all.

This is why I have a problem with the Independent, who know fine well that they're throwing these kind of articles out into this kind of context. I think it's irresponsible and it doesn't contribute anything to useful public debate or the public interest. It just invites people to behave badly on the comments threads (and on message boards like this).

I would like it to be the case that women could offer their birth stories (which will span the whole range of different experiences) as a source of information for other women. Sadly, I think that it's just plain naive to think that this is what the Independent were trying to achieve here.

Lulumama: I'm glad that you feel very positive about your VBAC, and I do hope it all goes well for you. It probably is odd that people who know you would think being able to fit a haircut into your schedule was a priority for you just before you give birth. Unfortunately (as I do not know you), your comment did come across as more general than that. In all honesty, I can't imagine that a haircut would be top of my list of priorities immediately before childbirth either. But, hey, maybe I just don't care enough about my appearance and bumble through life looking a shambles!