to think parents shouldn't bring their child up vegetarian?

[Picante]

Unless for religious reasons.

Yes this is a thread about a thread but I think I was annoying too many people over there so I've started my very own for people to get annoyed with me here!

I just think it's mean. Meat is such a huge part of our culture and fair enough if you're old enough to decide that you don't want to kill animals... but children should be given all sorts of food in the early years, including meat, until they are old enough to make that decision for themselves!

On the thing about feeding your kids what you like that is normal enough. I'm not likely to serve locusts in honey any time soon which some might say is the same kind of restriction.

The difference though is that I won't be warning people not to give my kids locusts and I won't be saying that people who do eat them are immoral. Live and let live.

On the 'save the planet/limited resources' side there is not enough food now of any kind and eventually if we don't limit the population it will be physically impossible to grow enough veg so the answer to that one is 2 child families for everyone. Cutting out meat eating for all would not be a solution.

maybe not, Onagar, but the most pressing problem is the fact that fish stocks are heavily depleted and that the rainforest is being cut down for meat production (which is not only a tragedy in itself but will affect the health of the planet as a whole).

I think we're going to have to settle for the 2 kid family and a mainly vegetarian diet.

I was five when I chose to become vegetarian, I've been one for 15 years now and when I have children I will not feed them meat. If my partner wants to feed them meat then I'm happy for him/her too, however I won't do it myself whilst they are still tiny.

The main reason for that, however, is because I wouldn't be able to check the taste/heat of it myself, and I wouldn't expose a child to risk of burning because I can't suitably check myself.

I will encourage them to eat healthily and as they see fit, if they choose to be a vegetarian like me then I will ensure that they are healthy and teach them more about the diet as they grow older (gelatine, rennet, etc) but wouldn't fill them with the horror stories when they are younger, that is what I think is unfair. The parents who force it upon their children and have them watch peta videos (you know the kind I'm talking about) at a young age. You may as well let them watch 18 movies if you do that.

But, I also do not agree with parents who lie to their children about what meat is. I had a child tell me last week that the ham in his sandwich came from the ground, and was like potatoes in that it grows underground. All this because he told his parents he didn't want to eat cows and pigs anymore. Why would you lie to your children about these things?! They'll find out eventually.

I would never lie to my dcs about meat and I do respect their sensibilities. Though in my heart of hearts I do wish they could reconcile themselves to eating rabbit casserole- eating a pest, which needs shooting anyway to save the crops, seems pretty sustainable to me.

I wasn't ranting at anyone in particular cory I haven't really read the thread, just adding my two pence

I personally dislike the idea of eating something that was once alive, though if I did eat meat I would not let social and cultural boundaries let me decide what I could and couldn't eat. The western world is so hyped up on eating only certain types of meat, the English and American's have been known to try convert Eastern countries to thir ways by attempting to ban dog meat, horse meat, etc, yet I see no reason to conform. Why is it acceptable to eat one type of meat but not another? Your comment on rabbit meat made me think of that, because I've heard people say that they don't eat horse/rabbit/lamb because it's too cute, and just made me remember the social conformities of the whole meat eating debacle.

Not to anyone in particular, but a couple of people have mentioned traumatised kids not wanting to eat 'dead flesh'. Presumably they are getting their words from evangelical Vegetarians. Is it not enough for vegetarians to say they don't want to eat meat without the smear campaign.

IMO videos of what goes on during transportation and slaughter of the flesh that children are given as food SHOULD be shown to children.

It's not fiction.

Let children make up their own minds.

If I had known the truth as a child instead of being told e.g. that milk comes from cows - " The cows eat the grass and milk comes out for us" - I would have been rightly appalled.

Irish potato famine in the 1800s? Ireland was exporting food thru much of that. Ditto for Ethiopia during their big famine in the 1980s. Quite sick how the free market works, sometimes.

I hate evangelical vegheads. They annoy me so much because all they do is push people further away from vegetarianism. I'm not an evagelist, but if I'm asked I will be honest. When I have kids, I'll be honest but will censor it appropriately, for instance explaining to a 5yo the processes of the cows death and transportation isn't appropriate, but as they grow older I will help them research it themselves, I was 10/11 when I found it all out in detail and I was ready to know about it, but I still dislike watching most of the peta videos as they are just disgusting. I think children should make informed, unbiast decisions on their diets, however using petas videos as a resource is bad and very biast imo.

I've heard the same as Riven. There are many reasons to have diets more vegetarian-based and to eat less meat. The industry contributes to deforestation, global hunger crisis', transportation issues, green house gases, etc, but people will remain ignorant to the facts because they don't want to change. I don't see why meat should be given up completely, just the amounts eaten (and also the amounts wasted) could be lowered even if it means cutting it out of one evening meal a week. I'm very happy to cook meat for my charges, though they are also happy to go without on occasion. They have at least one meat free dinner a week, or sometimes will go a week or so without any meat for dinner, it's just about being inventive with the rest of it.

Riven, I'm afraid there will never be the will to share equally or the organisation to get it to where it needs to be. Often through war zones or past dictators who don't care.

And one day soon there will be 11 billion or 20 billion. Except that there probably won't because people will just die faster and more horribly.

My population plan will probably never be acted on either, but if we had a 1/10th or 1/100th as many people it would be easier to feed everyone and more resources generally.

I can't believe that in this day and age people are still moaning about cooking vegetarian food for veggie friends / DC's friends who come to eat. Is your diet really so limited you can't think of a single thing to make that doesn't involve meat??? We are not veggie, but I would say only eat meat 3 times a week.

also re the "traumatised kids not wanting to eat dead flesh" I don't think that's anything to do with veggie parents passing on their beliefs. I can clearly remember going through a phase of not wanting to eat meat at about 5 or 6 and I had no idea what a vegetarian was at that age, I was just disturbed by the idea of eating something that used to be a living thing. I firmly believe that children should be educated as to where their food comes from and eat meat in the full knowledge of what it is - I hate this idea that it just comes wrapped in plastic in the supermarket magically out of nowhere.

Oh and ps I eat a very healthy balanced diet, inlcuding red meat, but am still always low in iron. It's just genetic, my mother was too.

Cosmosis, the thing was that some of the phrases sounded suspiciously like things they would have got from adults lecturing them on it. I wouldn't try to upset the kids of veggie parents by mentioning the stuff that gets sprayed on fields.

I don't think a child gets to about 6 and starts throwing up at the thought of eating 'dead flesh' without a bit of outside help.

Kids will sometimes decide they don't want something and I think that should be dealt with calmly and without fuss to avoid them becoming obsessive about it.

"maybe but ever since I found out he advocates killing disabled babies I think he's a jerk."

I think you are misunderstanding utilitarian ethics on a quite profound level.

onagar, I must admit I've met a few kids from meat eating families who are veggie and chose at a young age (under 8), I myself am one, and none of us had the outside influences of parents telling us it was flesh, etc, unless you meant parents actually using those terms? I which case, I agree with you that a child can't think "dead flesh" without outside influence though, what child honestly thinks like that? For them it's more "But how did the sheep give us the lamb we're eating..."

I think we'd all be better off if organic and local farming became more popular, and people started cutting out the processed meat that they eat that has travelled from far and wide to get to their plates. But then also, the same could be said for fruit and veg which is flown into the UK when out of season.

Yeah, Im a first class nutter for not kiling things.

I think thats a bit rude too be honest. I wouldnt call a Catholic a nutter for not using contraception, however crazy the idea may seem to me, so I dont think I deserve being called a nutter because I wouldnt eat a chicken on a desert island!

But thats mumsnet for you.

Erm, I NEVER said I would let my dc's starve instead of eating meat!
How offensive! I love my kids with all my heart, and WOULDNT STARVE THEM!!
I would love that post to be deleted tbh.

No I don't think it is rude, if you wouldn't kill a chicken when you are literally starving then you're nuts.
Though I suspect the reality of it would be rather different to your response now, if you were in that situation.

And I also think the no contraception thing is nuts too, and I was raised as a Catholic.

Besides we aren't talking about contraception, we're talking a life or death situation in which it's you or the chicken.

To be fair to you though you did say that you wouldn't apply your morals to your children.

Thunderduck - how rude! So because I wouldnt want to kill a chicken, Im NUTS!! I did not for one minute say I would starve my children.
Well I think you are nuts for eating meat.
I think you are nots for helping your children along wih heart disease, obesity and the rest of it, but I guess THATS not rude either, eh?

Im going to ask MN to delete that. I dont like accusations of starving my kids on the internet.
Im leaving this now.

Oh, and breast cancer.

No it isn't Riven. Utilitarian ethics asks difficult questions simoly to build up a picture of all available strategies - this includes distasteful ones. That's very different from advocating one course of action over another. You are commiting the is/ought fallacy.