To think MIL being judgemental and over-bearing about DC's baptism.

[Rollergirl1]

DH and I are not religious. DH's parents are practising catholics and DH was heavily involved in the church until he was a teenager (was an alter boy). I was christened when young but haven't gone to church since i was little. We had a civil ceremony when we got married. DD is due to start school in Sep 2010 and I have started looking at local schools. The two best schools in our area by a mile are the two local catholic schools. So we are now getting DD (3) and DS (1) baptised. And we are getting them baptised at PIL's local church despite it being 200 miles away from where we live. The reason that we are doing this is because local churches expect you to go to church regularly before they will consider baptising. So this is purely down to laziness and convenience. MIL knows the exact reason we are doing this and knows that we are not religious. She is making a big deal of it, arranging marquee for after the ceremony and inviting all their side of the family, etc. And I am happy for her to do so because she is doing us a favour. One of the godparents (my best friend)is unable to make it as they have other plans for that date. I wouldn't dream of making her change them as she knows this is not a big thing for us and we are really only doing for reasons cited above. Also my Mum won't be able to make as she is having a knee replacement the week before and won't even be able to walk. And she is not religious and not catholic. And it is happening 200 miles away. But my MIL is now saying that if my best friend can't come than i should ask someone else to be the godparent and has firmly stated that she thinks my mum should be there. I'm now getting stressed as I really don't want to make a big deal of this as we are only doing for the reason of schools but then think am I being unreasonable as MIL doing us a favour by sorting this out for us?

If you want the best for them would that include teaching them to lie and manipulate something that is a very serious and important way of life to an awful lot of people as well as to the school you are asking them to respect?

I understand you want the best, I can see why, I can understand you being frustrated that you cannot get what you want without resorting to something like this but I do think that teaching your dc proper values in an average school is going to be better for them than teaching them very poor values and expecting a good school to have to undo all that.

I could not agree more with KingCanuteIAm (cool name by the way). We all want the best for our children, that does not justify making a mockery of what is after all the holiest sacrament in the Church. This being said, I do empathise with the parents who want to get their children into a good school, but don't have the money to go private. In France where I come from we don't have massive differences between schools, because the gvt tries to ensure that all schools are reasonably good. Then again, I sometimes wonder if parents don't get a bit too fixated on a particular school... But the whole debate is all a bit irrelevant - getting the kids baptised will not be enough to get them into the school. They will have to attend church, etc. I trust our Roman brothers to separate the wheat from the chaff... They're nowhere near as soft as us CofE!

Why would I be teaching them to lie and manipulate? I have stated enough times that this is not just a case of getting them baptised and that be the end of it. We are prepared to attend the local church. How is that teaching them to lie and manipulate?

Surely Morloth's scenario is in bad taste too? Her nonchalance for the religion that is being taught to her child is okay just because she had to pay for it?

You can't have something so you are willing to lie to get it.

Thank you Mouette I am quite attached to this one

Rollergirl, either you are part of a faith or you are not, if you are pretending to be part of it for your own gain then you are manipulating and - by extention - telling a rather large lie. If you are converting to a religion then fair enough but it is pretty clear you are not.

Religion that you are not a part of being part of a school (fee paying or not) is totally different to making religion that is not yours part of your life to get into a school.

I am fairly nonchelant about the religion in dds school, so is she, but we are both respectful of it - importantly we are both respectful enough of the schools religion that we feel distaste at the idea of manipulating it and choose the admissions lottery over an out-right lie because of this.

#2. We are prepared to attend the local church."

You obviously missed my questiona bout this previously.

If you're going to start attending the church anyhow. Why not attend then get your child baptised there???

You're still lying Morloth. It's just that your lie is out in the open for all to see. You are still sending your child to a school that teaches a religion you have a "vague interest" in. And the thing is that because you not being catholic or your child not being baptised is not a requirement for your child's admittance to the school, that you feel precisely no compulsion whatsoever to even learn or understand what is being taught to your child. Well done you. You must be (and certainly sound) very pleased with yourself.

FAQ because schools often have requirements about how long it is since baptism, your approach would not be quick enough to sidestep the rules so the op can get her own way.

Rollergirl, I sympathise with the thought process that led you here, I really do.

(a bit of background: DH and I both grew up in deeply religious, Mormon familes, the kind where every, single social event and the entire community is wrapped up in the church. To choose even non-attendance is choosing ostracism from the community and to declare non-belief is asking for revulsion from your closest family members because those who have rejected the faith are bound for the lowest circles of Hell. We chose to not attend or participate and keep our beliefs to ourselves - though that will be harder as DD gets older)

Anyway, I know you are trying to do as you see best by your kids and you've been lectured for nine pages about the hypocritical nature of your actions (and yes, they are a bit hypocritical - I think you know that - they are also your choice), but at the end of the day, even if the baptism is for naught and the kids don't get into the Catholic school, the involvement of YOU, your kids' parent, is the biggest factor in whether they succeed or not.

So yes, YABU to get your hackles up about your MIL. If you are doing the Catholic baptism, let MIL do it the "right" (Catholic) way, and concentrate your non-Catholic energy on your kids getting a good education no matter what school they end up at.

why is she lying the school knows that she and her family aren't christians - so she's not putting up a front (just a bit of cash ) - just like we did to get our DS's into a good school.........except our money went on a house close to a decent state school.

Rollergirl, there is no requirement for a person to be of a certain religion to be in the school (ie the school we are at or Morloths) then that is it, there is no requirement, you do not get a "higher moral code" card because you are prepared to pretend/lie and we do not feel this is right.

If you really want to dig around in your chosen religion I am sure there will be something in there about teaching children what is right, about telling a lie for ones own gain.... maybe it is you who is not understanding the religion?

FAQ: DH wanted to get the baptism done sooner rather than later and KingCanute is correct in that it would probably be at least 6 months before we could get the DC's baptised at the local church.

My point was that many people have commented on here about why you would send your child to a school that teaches a religion that you don't believe in. You are doing exactly that but it's okay because your religion was not a requirement in the first place. But there is still a discrepancy between your lack of faith and what is being taught to your child.

Notlost: One of the things that I have definitely got from this thread is that I am being far too precious about my MIL and I will be letting her do things in whichever way she sees fit.

If you are happy for the children to be raised as Christians then that is indeed OK, my dear. But there is a lot, lot more to being a Christian than attending church... In particular that means following the teachings of Christ... Hey, you'll discover all that soon enough. Baptism is only the start: catechism, confirmation, Easter, Christmas, Holy Communions and Adorations of the Holy Sacrament... So much to look forward to. Plus of course they will be taught that sex before marriage is a sin, and that contraception is banned... Happy days.

Being taught about religion in school (and they have to teach about more than just their own religions now) is not a bad thing, being asked to take part in prayers in assemblies? I am not sure that is a bad thing either - not for some people I admit - but I feel that sitting quietly and respectfully whilst people who have faith go through their prayers is not too much to ask of a child.

Asking a child to attend church weekly, to mouth words they do not feel, words you do not feel either, asking them to go to their teachers and say that, not only do they understand the religion, they believe in it, they uphold it.

I do not see how the two are remotly comparable and I think you are attempting to deflect from your own issue here.

"Asking a child to attend church weekly, to mouth words they do not feel, words you do not feel either, asking them to go to their teachers and say that, not only do they understand the religion, they believe in it, they uphold it."

Please tell me what 5yr old child does understand and feels religion?

I'm sorry, I don't have the time to thrash out every single point of this mammoth thread. However I do take on board a lot of what has been said.

Thanking you all.

but why the rush - why "sooner than later"

and ermm you've obviously NOT read my posts as my religion is very important to me.

So will you be taking them to church once they are baptized?

"Please tell me what 5yr old child does understand and feels religion?"

erm that would be my BF's DD who turns 5 in August. She asks her mum to help her pray -and even came bouncing out after school recently saying that the prayer she'd before school had helped. And also told her mum (with no prompting) that she wasn't frightened about her major op she was about to have (was sat in the room waiting to go down to theatre) "because Jesus will be with me".

You're welcome. Personally I think that if you're doing something wrong you will be paying for it by having to sit through hour after hour of church services! Mwaaah ha ha. Can't say you've chosen the easiest option either... They're quite hardcore, our RC brothers and sisters. You should have gone CofE, we've got room for everyone, even non-believers. Best of luck with the church fetes.

Yes, you could always consider your MIL an "expert" and when she has advice just breathe deep and think about that.

I do think it's perfectly possible for your DCs to be a different religion (or religious to a different degree) than their parents and that their parents can support them in their religion. As long as you accept that and do support them then they will be attending the school as legitimate Catholics, regardless of what you believe. If you had told us that you were militant atheist and would be de-converting them at every turn I would have less sympathy.

I have an overbearing MIL AND and overbearing step-MIL, so I have had lots of practise at breathing deep and picking my battles

Rollergirl1 - Your husband was, I assume, baptised, confessed,communioned and confirmed, he IS catholic.

There is no get out bar death or conversion.

Get them Baptised by all means BUT be prepared to jump through hoops when applying to the school of your choice.The parish priest will probably want to see proof of baptism.Your MIL's priest should ask for dispensation to baptise your children as it is an out of parish child(ren).Dispensation is fun to get.You can send your child to catholic school even if they are not catholic.

Your MIL probably see this as a big deal so feels your mother should be there to see it.It is the first of the sacraments in the catholic faith so YES it is a big deal to your MIL.

Your godparents need to be catholic, this is quite important as you are promising to bring up the children in faith,the priest will be quite strict on that.You should also attend a course beforehand.This can vary from 1 session to 4 months of weekly sessions which also the priest can want to see the godparents attending some.

And yes you can have a proxy Godparent, I stood in for my cousin when her godmother was unable to attend, this had to be run past the priest first-he allowed this being as the Godmother was in hospital at the time having given birth 3 months early.

and to be hones the point is that YOU are going to be standing in church lying, and YOU are not going to be able to help your child understand what you are going to pretend you believe in as you have no feelings about it yourself!

It's much easier for my BF to explain to her DD about things as she (BF) is also a Christian

Leaving us so soon? But the thread was just beginning to get interesting? Seriously though I can understand you don't have that much time. What with the vows you've got to rehearse. Repeat after me: "I renounce evil." "I submit to Christ" "I fight for Christ"...

Oh, that makes it ok then

A 5yo going to church only makes any kind of sense if it is there because its parent is trying to instil a lifstyle, a belief, a set of values that are important to them. If the parent believes and wants the child to believe too then it works, if the parent does not believe and wants to cheat their way into school, well, it just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and makes me very sad for the children - and the school TBH.

FAQ: I was referring to Morloth and KingCanute, not you.

Kimi: Yes we will, and are actually meeting the priest on sunday.