To think MIL being judgemental and over-bearing about DC's baptism.

[Rollergirl1]

DH and I are not religious. DH's parents are practising catholics and DH was heavily involved in the church until he was a teenager (was an alter boy). I was christened when young but haven't gone to church since i was little. We had a civil ceremony when we got married. DD is due to start school in Sep 2010 and I have started looking at local schools. The two best schools in our area by a mile are the two local catholic schools. So we are now getting DD (3) and DS (1) baptised. And we are getting them baptised at PIL's local church despite it being 200 miles away from where we live. The reason that we are doing this is because local churches expect you to go to church regularly before they will consider baptising. So this is purely down to laziness and convenience. MIL knows the exact reason we are doing this and knows that we are not religious. She is making a big deal of it, arranging marquee for after the ceremony and inviting all their side of the family, etc. And I am happy for her to do so because she is doing us a favour. One of the godparents (my best friend)is unable to make it as they have other plans for that date. I wouldn't dream of making her change them as she knows this is not a big thing for us and we are really only doing for reasons cited above. Also my Mum won't be able to make as she is having a knee replacement the week before and won't even be able to walk. And she is not religious and not catholic. And it is happening 200 miles away. But my MIL is now saying that if my best friend can't come than i should ask someone else to be the godparent and has firmly stated that she thinks my mum should be there. I'm now getting stressed as I really don't want to make a big deal of this as we are only doing for the reason of schools but then think am I being unreasonable as MIL doing us a favour by sorting this out for us?

Oblomov - what an odd question. I would have thought this subject had been debated enough on here for that to be clear.

I personally am fine (now) because we have a lovely village school nearby which both my children have got into. But that isn't the case for everyone, as you well know. "Choice" in education is a myth. If your nearest, very good primary school is a faith school then you may be reduced to ways and means such as those described by the OP.

oh I see FAQ. No, I was never under the illusion that I had a 'choice'.

FAQ - you're right, and when we've taken the faith issue out of the state system, as we should, we can start to examine the other reasons why schools fail and attempt to address them one by one.

I'm with Unquietdad - the whole schools admission system is skewed by the existence of church schools (exercising covert selection by class) anyway. OP is just playing a pretty crappy system.

FWIW like your children, I'm the grandchild of devout Catholics on one side but their son, my father, grew up to be an atheist. Catholic schools weren't an issue for us but I am sure my grandmother would have been delighted to have my sisters and I Christened and educated in the RC church instead of the CofE.

FAQ I think that's probably true - I was schooled and brought up as a catholic (primary anyway) - and certainly it was very strict and very full on. My friends are mostly catholic and where the children are at catholic schools the faith is a huge part of the school - it underpins everything they do.

My DH is CofE and he tells me that things aren't nearly as full on with his side of things.

This debate does get me stirred up as it's something we're thinking about at the moment. And for me it's not that the church schools are better - it's that they are in walking distance. For me a huge part of the primary experience is that it is a walk, it is a very local thing - walking down the road every morning with your mum to school is a lovely way to start the day, and having all your little friends nearby is a huge bonus. Having to get in the car/bus every morning and add to all the pollution and travel that distance seems really silly. It just doesn't make sense that the local primary schools, which are funded to some extent by the taxpayer, will not take huge numbers of local children because their parents believe in the wrong deity/no deity.

It just doesn't make any sense and is a huge source of angst worry and gibbering for loads of parents in my area. And I am one of them

But but. Why do 'faith' schools usually have such good reputations and why do people bust a gut to get into them? Surely they must be doing something right? Perhaps there is something to this 'faith' after all, Roller girl? Maybe this will be your Damascus, your conversion experience... ooh, maybe God is calling your name....

(Of course, if you truly don't believe, you won't be too upset if your DC don't get in. After all, you wouldn't want your kids to go to a school run by people spouting rubbish, would you?)

FFS did you really expect any other response to the ones you've got?

Yes YABVVU on so many levels

If you are going to have faith schools then ask the children what they believe. I think sending a 16 yr old to a catholic faith school, when they clearly don't believe and couldn't give a monkeys, just because the parents believe is just as hypocritical as what the OP is doing.

right I can't find any - but there must be numbers somewhere of number of

VA and VC schools.

AND how many of the VA schools set their own admissions policies as opposed to the LEA admissions.

Because I have already stated Voluntary Controlled schools have their ADMISSIONS DEFINE BY THE LEA.

I think we should be looking at failing schools NOW (well 20yrs ago would have been better.....) because contrary to popular myths and folklore not all faith schools have outstanding reputations either.

The whole choice thing is a myth and a party political soundbite.

Here we have choice based on parental income no different/better or worse than choice based on religion for most of the religious schools you can at least 'choose' that religion whereas surprisingly despite my choosing it last months pay packet wasn't 100,000 pounds

can't understand why.....

The recent investigation into faith schools in two parts of the country (and my borough in London was one of the areas chosen) showed that many faith schools were acting illegally when selecting students - asking for "donations", asking what parents jobs were and their level of education.

The better results from faith schools may simply be because they are selecting their intake.

yes, yes, sorry UD. of course. my memory failed me. how could i forget such 'classic Mn corkers' .

very true dilemma.

I must say despite me being an advocate for keeping faith schools and my DS's happening to attend one.

My main priority when applying for schools was how good the school was. The fact is that we got allocated our closest school - and it happens to be a church school. I wouldn't have batted an eyelid if it wasn't a church school - because it's an excellent school end of.

Mind you I would have batted an eyelid if I didn't get a place based on the "distance" criteria

"The better results from faith schools may simply be because they are selecting their intake. "

ermm no if they're Voluntary Controlled (which a very large number of them are) then the LEA are selecting their intake for them.

And our local schools are doing well because of the excellent head teachers and staff.

My local schools have "looked after" children first, then about 18 different sorts of religious "grading", and distance last.

I am in a right pickle about the whole thing.

"asking what parents jobs were and their level of education."

ahh - missed that bit - so that would be the issue raised my 1dilemma then - the parents that can afford to buy/rent close enough to the school to get a place.

ahh lovely - you must have VA's only near you then.

Disagree with spam. Nothing to do with 'selecting intake'. our school has best results in the county. becasue ... reputation fantastic, teaching and staff fab, headmistress ausome, and mainly because all the parents, they really care. they do attend parents evenings, sit 'religiously' and read with their children most evenings.
selection. rubbish. results are good, because we make it happen.

Do you know what you are getting into, i.e six years of religious education backed up by church attendance, holy communion and confirmation later on. Once your child is in a catholic school you can't pick and choose which bits of the faith suit you, your MIL is just giving you a taster, there is more to come, first communion is a big deal, confirmation is a big deal and you are going to be doing both twice over.
If you don't think you are gonna to like the ride, don't by the ticket.
Think hard.

You are so hypocritical it is funny (almost). Anyway, don't the school expect regular attendance of PARENTS at local church? I suspect that regular attendance at a church 200 miles away won't float their boat. I actually hope this all backfires on you, and that your children rebel against your hypocrisy and become Catholic priests when they grow up. Sorry.

Merrylegs (and partly to Oblomov) - what happens is that schools become self-fulfilling prophecies to an extent. One which is seen as "good" and is full of nice, well-spoken, middle-class children and gets good results will be targeted by middle-class parents who want precisely this.

A "sink" school, on the other hand, just sinks further because interested parents won't go anywhere near it.

File under "not rocket science."

Ah, UQD, your mention of 'prophecies' there is dangerously close to religious talk. Better watch that.

Glad you saw my post.

UQD - failing schools can be turned round though. In the City near me, there is one secondary that parents have been desperate to avoid since it went into special measures - especially as this place is full of middle class professionals who move there for good schools (including church but also normal state schools).

Has just been taken out of special measures after only two terms, according to our local paper. Don't know what it's like (pupils in my town don't end up there unless they are VERY unlucky) but seems the head teamed up with two very successful local schools and has managed to turn things around. Clearly massive work by staff and pupils etc. etc. (head boy and girl were writing to local paper during admissions row re. parents objecting to being offered this school when they hadn't chosen it - thought that was very bright of them).

Of course it doesn't help if you have a town where there are X no. of desirable schools parents are keen to get their children into and one less enticing school. BUT there is also a primary in my town that has done something similar, turned round from last on anyone's list to one with a good reputation.

Merrylegs - but you asked a serious question - paraphrased, why are so many faith schools so successful? - (even if you asked it semi-rhetorically) and that was my serious answer. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy (file under "metaphorical use of language"...)

edam, you're right there (although of course schools go into special measures for all sort of reasons). It takes longer to turn round aprental perceptions though. Nothing will change until parents from the leafy suburbs start "choosing" the transformed sink-estate school.

that should say "parental"