To think MIL being judgemental and over-bearing about DC's baptism.

[Rollergirl1]

DH and I are not religious. DH's parents are practising catholics and DH was heavily involved in the church until he was a teenager (was an alter boy). I was christened when young but haven't gone to church since i was little. We had a civil ceremony when we got married. DD is due to start school in Sep 2010 and I have started looking at local schools. The two best schools in our area by a mile are the two local catholic schools. So we are now getting DD (3) and DS (1) baptised. And we are getting them baptised at PIL's local church despite it being 200 miles away from where we live. The reason that we are doing this is because local churches expect you to go to church regularly before they will consider baptising. So this is purely down to laziness and convenience. MIL knows the exact reason we are doing this and knows that we are not religious. She is making a big deal of it, arranging marquee for after the ceremony and inviting all their side of the family, etc. And I am happy for her to do so because she is doing us a favour. One of the godparents (my best friend)is unable to make it as they have other plans for that date. I wouldn't dream of making her change them as she knows this is not a big thing for us and we are really only doing for reasons cited above. Also my Mum won't be able to make as she is having a knee replacement the week before and won't even be able to walk. And she is not religious and not catholic. And it is happening 200 miles away. But my MIL is now saying that if my best friend can't come than i should ask someone else to be the godparent and has firmly stated that she thinks my mum should be there. I'm now getting stressed as I really don't want to make a big deal of this as we are only doing for the reason of schools but then think am I being unreasonable as MIL doing us a favour by sorting this out for us?

FAQ
You quoted me just then but I never said you, or any religious believer, was insane. My best friend and husband are both religious believers and I am not. I feel that religion and atheism are both equally valid belief systems, however I do not believe that state funded schools should have the right to exclude children based on their parents' faith, or prioritise children on the same. I believe that faith based schools that are solely, or wholly, composed of children of religious parents are divisive and negative for society. I believe that indoctrinating children is not a good thing, religion should be taught at home if the parents wish but at school they should learn facts not opinion or faith.

well you know I think people who read their horoscopes and have their palm read are barking up the wrong tree - but I don't go round trying to lecture then as to why......

You know -

I'm a Christian
I believe that Jesus was born, died on the cross and was raised again for me.

Shoot me now.

But I'm not going to be ridiculed by those that don't have the same faith as me. Well ou can try - but actually I don't care

you see that's the problem - that most people (from any belief system) that are active in their beliefs live it though their ENTIRE lives - it's not just something that only applies when they're at home, or in their place of worship it affects their whole lives and they don't just "shut it out" at school/work/wherever

If you like it's a "life style choice" (no I'm not talking about the benefits claimants )

Two things here - apologies if they have already been said.

1. You will need written permission from your priest to have a Baptism outside your local parish church. But you haven't even met your local priest yet to grant that permission.

2. Only two godparents can stand in a Catholic Baptism per child.

3. You can have proxy stand-ins if they can't attend.

FAQ - I apologise, 'insane' was the wrong word to use. I genuinely find it hard to understand that people believe. However, given that you do, I apologise for insensitive choice of words.

(In case anyone is interested there is a 'surfing Jesus' on another thread, from Franklin Mint, or Bradford Exchange).

Anyway, I digress, as you were.

I disagree FAQ. I think if she was professing those beliefs in order to gain other people's good opinions, then that would be hypocritical; but she's not doing it for the world's good opinion, she's doing it for a material purpose.

In the seventeenth century in England, thousands of catholics stood up in church and professed to hold opinions they didn't (CofE) because of the very real threat of persecution and property confiscation. In Spain, Jews and protestants pretended to believe Catholic doctrine, because they didn't want to burn to death. In 13th century Languedoc, Cathars pretended to believe in transubstantiation because similiarly, they didn't fancy being roasted either. In Afghanistan when the Taliban were in power, many people professed to believe in various bits of Islam they didn't because the alternative was to be stoned.

Were they all hypocrites? I don't think so. Professing something you don't believe, isn't automatically hypocrisy. It's why you do it that counts IMO.

I don't think anyone on the thread has professed a desire to shoot you (gag you perhaps ) you're overdramatising

but I imagine if your closes state-funded schools were refusing admission to your children on the grounds that you do not float about adorned with healing crystals with acupuncture needles sticking out of your face and gibbering about chakras, you would be a bit disgruntled

belief in the supernatural is what it is - I think ALL of it is hokum, as it happens, but it doesn't make me want to shoot people.

But it is weirdly outdated and wrong that it should have any bearing on school place allocation. And it's unhealthy to bundle together children whose parents all believe the same things and exclude others anyway. I would avoid a church school (or an 'indigo school', or a 'puff the magic dragon school') on those grounds alone. I really don't understand sensible people who don't beieve in any of this stuff wanting to put their children in an environment where they will be taught it as fact, for the greater part of every day.

King Canute - fine. Faith schools are open to everyone prepared to go to church regularly. But you can't make yourself believe can you? The best you can do is fake it. So presumably you feel the OP is entirely justified in her course of action.

if in doubt OED

"hypocrisy
? noun (pl. hypocrisies) the practice of claiming to have higher standards or beliefs than is the case.
? ORIGIN Greek hupokrisis ?acting of a theatrical part?."

so I agree with those who think the OP is a hypocrite

I agree too, and think it's odd that she would want her children in a church school

but really the problem shouldn't exist at all - as a society we really should have grown out of state-funded religious institutions by now.

But she's not claiming to have high standards.

She's claiming that she has low standards. That's not hypocrisy.

Lucie - the non faith schools in expensive areas are open to those.........

that can afford to live close enough to them to guarantee a place .

FluffyFanjo > apology accepted .

It does create a divide though.

Where I live we have a catholic school bordering a state primary.

85% of kids in the catholic are black or mixed heritage (black/white)

75% of state primary are Asian.

There is about 2 asian kids in the catholic school and about 5% black kids in the State.

Makes me sad everytime I see them all walking home in their different uniforms but all separated .

Hold on where I live (have just had a look) there are 89 primary schools. Of these 23 are community primaries, leaving 66 religious schools.

I know the entrance criteria of the ones near me - they are based on worshipping at particular places. A quick skim confirms my suspicions that the others all have entrance criteria based on religious conditions as well.

Some have a small percentage of community places - 20% say - which follow the usual rules - I think this gets them more money. But of course if its your nearest school and you want to go there you're working on guesswork as to whether you are near enough or not. The distances from the school each year for the community places are not published.

So what you gonna do? As I mentioned earlier - if i dont worship then I have no walking distance option and that is really really important to me. It seems ridiculous that I am so near so many primary schools and like as not DD won't be allowed to go to any of them. In fact it makes me pretty angry.

I agree with you Greensleeves but the fact remains that the nearest non-denominational school to me is dreadful, while my closest school is fantastic but insists on you being a member of their church.

Betsyboop - my local primary school's criteria is that you go to their church. I have no idea how parishes come into that because my local church doesn't have a school attached to it. Here is my closest school's admission criteria:

1. Looked after children.
2. Children who are current members of XXXX Church and have been so for at least the twelve months immediately preceding the date of this application.

That's pretty clear isn't it?

the story is completely different in our area.

The "worst" criteria are for 2 of the (tiny) village CoE schools - and although they're friendly little schools nothing to write home about and if you don't live in one of those villages and don't drive then getting them to school would be impossible,

By FAR the worst criteria that actually made me is the Catholic school actually. All of the CoE schools have "any" child in care, or one who has been statemented etc as first prirotiy.

The cathlic one reads

" 1. Looked after Catholic children
2. Baptised practising children of Catholic families in the local parishes.
3. Children of Catholic families in the local parishes.
4. Catholic children of Catholic families outside the catchment area.
5. Catholic children of Catholic families who are moving into the area, who are supported by their priest.
6. All other looked after children
7. Children who have a sibling attending the school at the time of admission.
8. Baptised Christian children of other denominations, supported by their own minister/priest.
9. Baptised Christian children of other denominations
10. Unbaptised children of Catholic homes
11. Children of Christian homes
12. Children of other faith traditions

Almost makes me weep

and now I really am outta here - got to pick DS1 up from his (CoE ) school production in 15 minutes.

FAQ your list looks identical to the one for my local Catholic school. I thought you thought this was all OK?

well it's a pretty crap school so no I'm not too bothered .

Bella, you would be right - if the op was going to be upfront and honest about her actions to the school that she applies to - but I doubt she will. Therefore her actions are hypocritical.

that's pretty crap then spicemonster, as I said before even most VA schools give priority to local families, but some don't, yours is obviously one of them

One other question for those wanting to abolish faith schools, how do you suggest the billions are raised to compulsorily purchase the school buildings & land from the church? (or even worse, would you be happy sending your kids to the new non-faith school that might not be so conveniently placed as the current faith school, if the church keeps the land/buildings?)

As has been said before if it's all down to distance from school, that won't fix failing schools either, just create an even deeper social divide based soley on ability to afford a house near a decent school or pay for private education IMHO.

Great FAQ, your ds is OK so there's no problem.

I can't believe that in the 21st century it is legal for such a list of entry criteria to a state-funded school should exist.

Divisive, un-'christian'. No place at all for children of people who are faith-free. . Its a particularly bad example, but it shows why people have to resort to what may be judged to be hypocritical actions in order to get their child educated.

But the school wouldn't allow her children in if she were honest with them, so why would she do that? She's not lying to the school in order that they think well of her, she's lying to them in order to get her DC's an education.

For anyone who is worried by this issue, the organisation Accord campaigns against unfair entry requirements.