to expect nursery to take *some* care of DS's clothes?

[curlygal]

DS is in nursery four days a week so often by day four we are running low on "nursery clothes" ie scruffier stuff that he wears to nursery.

Yesterday I dressed him in a white (yes I know) Thomas T shirt (nothing fancy just the white one out of a pack of three) and he happened to be wearing his new summer shoes.

When I dropped him off I mentioned that I knew white wasn;t the best colour for nursery and that he had new shoes on and said specifically to DS to please be careful with his new shoes (his last pair was ruined at nursery).

When I came to collect him I couldn;t believe the state of him. His white T shirt is totally ruined - covered in red paint and yellow sun cream. His shoes and socks were soaked and he had got into the paddling pool wearing shoes and socks.

I've soaked and washed the T shirt three times now and it is not wearable again. The shoes are ok after a wash, but you;d never guess they were new!

Several items of clothing have now been ruined at nursery - about three tops stained with non washable paint, plus the other shoes. Not to mention a lovely cardigan that just "disappeared".

I expect him to get a bit mucky and I know the white T shirt was silly but surely they should at least make an effort not to ruin the children's clothes?

My DS's? Just because he can't cram his head through the head hole without giving himself a headache

No-the stained Tshirt from OP which would be fine for nursery and it wouldn't matter in future what happened to it!

sorry the future.

Actually SPB at our nursery we wouldn't put on any random child's clothes. The bags are right next to the door and if I can't grab it then someone else can, it takes about 30 seconds and if I COULDN'T for whatever reason (which tbh, if I wasn't able to then I would be questioning child:staff ratio) then the child would be able to stay in their nappy, we've had half the nursery in their nappies this week due to the weather, and ALL children throughout the nursery are stripped down into vests and nappies for sleep time, but then if someone was looking in our windows they'd be moved on...it certainly wouldn't be used as a reason for anything.
Personally I'd tell your child's keyworker that although once or twice coming home in some nursery clothes is understandable you'd appreciate it doesn't happen again, you provide clothes for him and unless they are all dirty then you want him to wear his own. Nursery clothes should be used as spares, not because it's 'easier' for the staff member. Just seems lazy to me.

I ahve to say DS comes home an absolute scruff (when they don't change him to look like Daffyd from Little Britain) and most of it washes out fine. Suppose it depends on the paint they use though. I agree - the odd stain is fine as long as it's clean and not ripped.

Thanks VS. Not sure about own clothes only - if the clothes I send him to nursery in aree scruffy you can imagine what the 'spares' look like I don't have a problem with him wearing any old clothes as long as they fit. OTOH finding the label to check the size would probably take longer than just going to his bag.
Ratios are fine I think - was to learn that ratios don't have to be in each room but in the nursery as a whole - so I think this happens when another child is at the toilet or whatever. I also don't care if the postman sees DS in a nappy (there wouldn't be passers by) but I can see why they would start educating the children about their right to be covered up if they want to, and respect when getting changed etc so I don't really mind that either.

purepurple you say children are entitled to dignity therefore they can't walk around in their nappy yet you put knickers on boys?
Sounds a bit contradictory.

And those who say that cleanliness is being put before developmental play, bollocks. It takes seconds to put an apron on a child who is about to paint, and a painting activity should be properly supervised, so really a child coming home covered in paint is not being supervised properly or the staff just do not care. Same goes with a child walking in a paddling pool with his shoes on, did they not notice? if so I'd be incredibly worried that a child was around a substantial amount of water not being properly supervised, or again, the staff did see but didn't care.

I can't comment on whether staff ratios are meant to be throughout the nursery because as far as I am aware they should be per room, at least at our nursery it's how we work, under twos ratio is 1:3 not sure about over twos but in effect your nursery is saying that there could be 13 members of staff in, ten of them in one room with say 20 children and 2 with 9 babies? IME, OFSTED would flip a lid if they saw that.

I agree it's probably quicker to put an apron on that change them all afterwards, but OTOH my DS would probably take it straight back off again! Not sure about supervision - unless they're doing something dangerous shouldn't they be allowed to get on with it? I send my DS to nursery because he's allowed to smear paint and mud everywhere and all I have to do at the end of the day is strip his clothes off and dump him in the bath

The children should be supervised with everything they do SPB, according to the EYFS, we are meant to observe all their play, not interrupt, but watch.

Would they? It was on MN I heard that after I asked a question after seeing something in DS's old nursery.
I would hope the ratios should be room by room (as yours obviously is) but if one member of staff needs to pop out to get a bag or go to the toilet, they don't have to get someone to replace them for 30s iyswim? I think that's how DS's nursery works it.

Yes that's exactly it - so if you stopped my DS smearing paint on his T-shirt, would you not be interrupting? Obviously I wouldn't want them to get the paints out, stick the kids in the room and go off for a cup of tea

VS, horses for courses
yes, I am contradictory, it's what makes me me.
I can't comment on any other nursery but in ours we have continious provision, which means we have lots of messy activities out all at the same time. Our ratio does not allow us to sit and watch every activity all of the time. we have to flit about and supervise it all. Also, the children are encouraged to be independent and do things for themselves, so they do get messy. Even with aprons on.

Going to a child who is about to start painting and saying 'ooh, are you going to do some painting, let's get an apron on then' isn't the same as interrupting. Interrupting would be going over to him when he is painting and telling him he has to do something else.

WRT ratio, yes sometimes someone may have to leave the room but that should be limited. If OFSTED were to come into the nursery and find 3 members of staff out of the room, therefore being completely out of ration then yes, they would be unimpressed. (ATM at my nursery, because one member of staff is constantly out of the room messing up ratios, management are considering disciplinary action because ratio is so important)

Purepurple, you said 'yes, I am contradictory, it's what makes me me.' but we aren't talking about what makes you you are we? This is about a nursery's procedures, not your personal ideas.

Staff ratios have been made more clear with the introduction of EYFS (link to EYFS Statutory Framework, May 2008). EYFS has changed the wording, so that it is much clearer that staff must be physically with the child in their ratio.
"The ratios relate to staff time available to work directly with children. Sufficient suitable staff must be available to cover staff breaks, holidays, sickness and time spent with parents, in order to ensure that the ratio and qualification requirements are always met in relation to the staff working directly with the children. Additional staff may be required to undertake management tasks, prepare meals, maintain premises and equipment and so on."

The ratios in EYFS are the MINIMUM, they are not the recommended. Nurseries are expected in my view to have more staff than are required by the minimum ratio.

The ONLY exception now for the Minimum Ratio is when the children are resting.
(Source: EYFS Framework, May 2008)
"Exceptions to the requirement that staff included in the ratios must be working directly with the children may only be made in limited circumstances, such as when the children are sleeping or resting. In these circumstances all the adults need not be present in the room with the children, but should be available nearby on the premises should they be needed."

Due to the above using the words "present in the room" I feel it could not be argued that Minimum Ratios now apply PER ROOM and not as a nursery as a whole. I would like the next edition of EYFS to clarify that, as although "working directly with children" is better than in the past, it still isn't saying that ratio applies PER ROOM (except for in the exemption).

SPB - "We can't always get to the bags when they need changing...sometimes we can't leave the room".
I would see that as being a management problem - bags are not located in an easily accessible place. Why can't the bags be stored in the room? If the bags can not be stored in the room... then someone who is not part of the Minimum Ratio should be getting the bag in my view.

curlygal - I feel letting your child get into a paddling pool while wearing their shoes shows a lack of supervision. Sure children will try to get into water wearing all their clothes... but I feel staff should intervene before the child gets to the water.

Thanks for clarifying about the ofsted thing - I was fairly shocked, can't remember the details (though they were 1 or under - think it might have been 6 of them in a circle with one staff member or 10ish with 2) but thought I had been overreacting.

that was to VS, but thanks for the detail as well nn

oh ffs VS
lighten up
or do you not have your own ideas and opinions in your perfect little world, just proceedures to follow?

Opps, must remember to proofread

Due to the above using the words "present in the room" I feel it could now be argued that Minimum Ratios apply PER ROOM and not as a nursery as a whole.

pp - I'd expect my DS's nursery to mainly follow the procedures in place. If the procedures don't make sense then they should be changed n general by people who know they are in line with law / guidance / ofsted. Obviously common sense is a must but I'd be nervous about the 'pointless red tape' attitude!

Of course I have my own ideas and opinions, but they can be followed within procedures and guidelines. You say the nappy thing is because of children's necessary dignity, then say you choose to ignore this wrt boys in knickers..

It just makes no sense you can't use rules as a reason for something then ignore them when it suits.

the first part of my reply was the official line, following proceedure

the part about the knickers was more tongue in cheek, and just pointing out that everything does not go smoothly and as we would wish. Obviously, if pants were available, I would put them on, but sometimes, there just arn't any available any I use whatever is there. I don't just 'ignore' proceedure. I never said that.

Daft question do you send your DC to nursery with several changes of clothes?
DD never comes home from nursery looking mucky as nursery will change her each time she gets mucky or wet.
Also I buy DD's clothes nearly exclusively from charity to shops so if something does get badly stained, I'm not bothered as its probably cost a couple of quid. Shes about the best dressed child in the nursery, a posh frock for everyday!
Aside from the above Im surprised the nursery let the children play with permanent markers and that the children are getting so mucky, DD's nursery use tabards for painting and strip the children down for wet play.

What is undignified about a boy in knickers?

yabu I think the nursery have a right to assume that whatever you dress him in is chosen as suitable for the environment in which they work - ie that you don't mind what happens to it, within reason. It isn't necessarily a case of using scruffy clothes just being sensible. For some parents a designer top is fine, for others it is a multi pack from a supermarket or hand me downs. Often the cheaper stuff will go on a hotter wash. You took the risk but there is no reason why the "ruined" t shirt and the others can't now be a spare or used only for nursery days. As to the shoes, dd jumped in a pond in her new startrites at aged 5 , it happens but they dried out.

I'm afraid this doesn't go away as they get older either - ds new £20 school jumper soon had acrylic paint on the sleeve and dd's dresses(£30 new) have suncream on the collar - so I don't bother with many brand new items !