AIBU to expect the private-school-using TA at ds's primary school not to slag it off?

[Huffthemagicdragon]

Ooo I'm feeling annoyed. In my son's reception class at our local primary school (which is lovely and representative of area, ie very mixed socially) there is a volunteer TA, let's call her Mrs X. She is thinking of becoming a teacher, hence the volunteer work. While this is all very kind of her to help out in the class etc, etc, I feel like telling her to feck off.
Firstly, someone told me that Mrs X had said that the school was good but that "she wouldn't send her son there". I enquired why and it was apparently due to large class sizes and mixed ability. Fairly standard in a state school and this woman has had her son down for various ultra posho schools from the off, so she would say that, I suppose.
Then I've just heard that she's been saying (to posho school parents) that the kids in ds' class are at a really low level and are only doing stuff that the kids in the pre-reception class of posh school are doing. Am annoyed because
a) I'm amazed at how much this bunch five year olds are achieving. My ds can write sentences, read a bit, write down sums etc etc. All thanks to great teaching.
b) This is an area where a lot of rich people live and unfortunately most of them drive their kids across London rather than supporting their local school and this sort of talk only encourages it.
c) Feel it's rather indiscreet and breaking some sort of code to talk about my ds's class to people who know him. Or to anyone in fact.
Am I being unreasonable? Should I just chill and accept that lots of people think state schools are sink schools on account of their big class sizes and children who haven't been taught to read Tolkein before reception? Or should I mention it to the very approachable head?
Ooo am so furious...

When you are choosing a school for your DC there is only one consideration IMO, and that is whether it is the best school for your DC. This is something I might discuss with friends, but as a teacher I have no reason to discuss my choices with other parents. If you can afford private education it widens the choice. Your system of 'fairness for all' was called communism dollius and didn't work! People have to be free to spend their money in the way that they want to spend it.
I know where a few of my DC's teacher's DCs go to school (mainly if it is the school they teach in-(there have been threads where mumsnetters resent that!)but on the whole I haven't a clue if they even have DCs, and it really doesn't matter.
Until you rid your mind set of 'private= superior' you are not going to like it Dollius.
My DCs comprehensive has just won the local debating competition-they were up against private schools.The runner up was also a comprehensive.
I agree with OrmIrian.

Because they are not allowed to teach in the way that I want my children taught.

In a state school my children would have to sit SATS, they would not be able to take part in as much music and drama (not eI am talking about my local schools not all state schools here).

Also they would have to be in composite classes of up to 30 children instead of single year group classes of 20 children.

Its not about having faith in the teachers, but in the system itself.

I chose INDEPENDENT education, not private education. If the same type of education was available in the state sector I would jump at it.

dollius - quit the patronising love [hmm} Maybe I just feel passionate enough about the job I am employed to do for me to take the time to put my points across. But hey, you obviously don't want to listen. At least the schools I have worked in and the parents of the children I have taught have chosen to judge me on the work I carry out, rather than a preconcieved idea of what I may be like.

MissM - because I chose a different school for my DD for many reasons. The local state school allocated us is actually a very very good school with a great OFSTED, fab reputation, etc. But for many reasons we did not feel it was the school that best suited the needs of mine, DHs and DDs needs. Wrap around care so that I could actually work in a state school wasn't provided for one, and no local childminders - so if I had sent DD to that school I wouldn't be putting my efforts into working in a state school at all!

As islands... states: lots of other system based reasons too; nothing to do with my faith in the teachers.

And yes, independent is the key word.

Besides this still gets away from the OP's main point re the TA. I stated my feelings regarding that previously.

It has got right away from OP-I think everyone has agreed on that one-and it has gone back to the usual state v private.
I also think independent is the key word. They exist quite happily side by side. I have been very happy with the state education in our area, but I can see that I might have had one DS in an independent school and two in the state, or all 3 part state part private. People should be free to do what they consider best for their DC and not have other people trying to force their opinions on them-or even give their opinion.

At DDs private prep some of the teachers/TAs send their DCs to state schools. I have never considered that they are less good at their job for having their children educated in a different place.

I wouldn't have a problem with any teachers at DS state school sending their children to private schools. In fact I would see this as a good thing. They would see what is happening in the private sector and gain good ideas to implement in the state schools. Both sectors should learn far more from each other.

I think the situation is different if you are an MP in a party that is in government and therefore in control of the country's education system. If labour MPs send their children to private schools or even grammar schools they are showing they don't have confidence in the state comprehensive system which they are responsible for.

Btw no I didn't speak to the TA as she was late and I had stuff to do. I did pass her as I was on my way in and she was on her way to her son's school and I felt my blood boil I'm afraid.

Final word on this saga - I spoke to her this morning and I must admit I think I had over-reacted and most of the gossip was at best exaggerated. At the same time, she admitted that she had had discussions about the school and that she hadn't realised how easily open to intepretation they could be.
However, it was a very civil and open discussion and I'm really glad that I spoke to her and not a) the head or b) any other parents. She also said that she found it valuable to know that you have to be incredibly careful about what you say as this sort of thing spreads very easily and people are naturally sensitive about the choices they make for their dc.
I'm also very grateful to have had this discussion on mn as it gave me a chance to vent in inflated terms and calm down before speaking to her.
Still think that people ought to do all that they can to support local schools though...

Well done huff. Sounds like you handled it brilliantly.

I also wish people would do all they can to support local schools - such as actually sending their children to them.

Wow, good for you. What a grown up way of handling things! Good to vent on MN isn't it - that way you don't act before you speak (which I regularly do) and can let off steam anonymously!

Most people do actually support their local schools-the huge majority go to them!
If they want to do something different-e.g. go to one outside the catchment area, pay or HE that is their choice. It seems to me dollius that your parents opted out and you think you are doing a huge thing by opting in; if you want to do it- then do it because you believe it is best for your DC and leave people free to make their own arrangements, without telling them what they should do. I have always supported local schools and so did my parents, but we can have the freedom to choose not to, if we wish!
I think you did a good thing Huff, if you made her realise how careful you have to be.

That's great huff - sounds like you did some good there. Well done.

Sounds very unprofessional if it is true.

Don't worry though - a lot of private school users routinely slag off the state sector to make themselves feel better about spending squillions on what other people get for free.

Doh! I obviously came to this thread late and so I have noted some interesting comments as usual.

It does seem that there is evidence for people getting jobs in private schools just for the fee reduction, although I am sure this is not always the case.

Once again private education is being bandied about as a "choice", which is such a misleading word. It would be a genuine choice if the alternative were, also, a choice. Like a choice between green and blue paint. But it's not. The vast majority of parents have no choice over where they send their children to school. That would be fine - it could even be democratic - but it's skewed by people buying themselves out of the democracy in various ways.

Teachers' own "choices" are interesting. I wouldn't automatically be suspicious of a teacher who had a downer on state schools for her own children while bigging it up as being good enough for mine, but she would have a hell of a lot to prove in my eyes. (DD and DS's teachers have been young unmarried women so far, so the issue hasn't arisen.)

The call for genuinely "independent" education is an interesting one. At the moment that does not exist. People who think private schools are "independent" are kidding themselves, or are calling them that because it sounds better.

I would genuinely love there to be some form of real independent alternative to the state sector for children who would genuinely benefit from alternative approaches to learning. And that means one which doesn't depend on how fat a wallet you wave. It won't happen.

pisces - you may well be right. Perhaps I do have a bee in my bonnet in some sort of rebellion against my parents.

Whatever my motives, at least they are geared towards the common good, rather than just what is best for me, me, me.

And I really think this "choice" argument is such a red herring. Most people don't have that choice to exercise, and are not "free to make their own arrangements".

I don't think I am telling people what they should do. I think I am just arguing for what I think is right. That's the whole point of these debate forums, isn't it?

"Freedom to choose" is a very important right, but the phrase is abused so often by politicians - usually from the Right - that it sets my teeth on edge.

(They use it to mean "freedom to do what you have the financial wherewithal to do" - a very different proposition indeed.)

I do feel that I am getting at you a bit dollius-I can't help but get irritated by your attitude! You and your DH both went to top, well known, private schools and suddenly you don't think this isn't fair (no argument with that at all-it isn't)and good for you if you want to break the mould and use state education for your DCs. I went to a secondary modern school (a very good one)and onto the 6th form and university. My parents would have paid for my education when I failed 11+ but they couldn't afford it for 3 of us. My DH won a full scholarship to a private school-there is no way his parents could have afforded the fees.
I just rather resent being told that because you want to think of the common good, everyone should do the same. Why can't I have my turn for private education for my DCs if that is what I want? If I want to downsize my house, never take holidays and never go out for meals etc, but pay for my DCs education that would be my choice and I don't think it fair that someone who has already had the best education money can buy tells me that I shouldn't do it or I shouldn't do it because I teach in the state system.

I can't believe I am having this argument because my DCs have all been through the state system. However, twice I have contemplated paying, but didn't in the end.

I get the best out of the state system. I moved to my town purely because of the schools. Is that any better? You may be intending to use the state system dollius but I can bet you pick your schools and live in a nice area-you are not going to be sending them to an inner city sink school for the common good-is it any different?

As a teacher I may want the challenge of taking on a failing school-it doesn't mean I want my DCs to go to the school.

It is a bit late for me, but obviously a teacher shouldn't even mention that they have DCs and if they do they should keep very quiet about where they go to school if parents think it has any relevance whatsoever to your teaching abilities!

'It does seem that there is evidence for people getting jobs in private schools just for the fee reduction, although I am sure this is not always the case'

I know several teachers at private schools and the reductions they receive are insignficant. At many schools they barely exist.

Of course it is irritating to hear this from me. I had all the privileges, so of course I can afford to say what I do. My DH and I commute a long way to work so that we can live in a nice village with a nice village school.

That, in itself, is a choice we are privileged to be able to make.

I completely understand where you are coming from.

But I don't think you should have to downsize your house, never go on a holiday again etc to pay for your children's education. A good education should be free for all. With the system as it is, the rich can buy themselves places at the top and they are paying to keep others out.

That's why I hate the two-tier system we have. It reinforces this awful class thing we are all so obsessed with in this country.

I honestly would feel prouder to live in a country which genuinely offers the same opportunities to everyone. This country does not - in a large part because of the two-tier education system.

It's easy to scoff at this sort of idealism and say "it's never going to happen". But that's probably what a lot of people said to Bevan when he thought up the NHS.

I taught at a private school, was offered a 40% fee reduction and turned it down, as my lad was going to a different prep that provided wrap around care so I could work. Interestingly, the HT that offered me the fee reduction sent both of his sons to my sons school, but his daughter to his own. Go figure.

I then went back into the state system, and needed the wrap around care even more. I didn't choose the local village school as the HT was weak, and there was far too much bullying and teaching to the SATS, and no available child minders either, hence prep (and the opportunity to board if needs be).

'the rich can buy themselves places at the top and they are paying to keep others out'

Not me. I pay for a broader curriculum and wider sports and music facilities. There are grotty rich children in my son's prep school. There are grotty poor children in my daughter's state primary school.

The rich ones just have better technology. There's no easy way of saying this but there are lots of children whose parents earn a lot and have a sense of entitlement, which their children have picked up on. They may have the money but they ain't got no class.

'But I don't think you should have to downsize your house, never go on a holiday again etc to pay for your children's education. A good education should be free for all.'

I know lots of parents who do this-they do it because they think it is worth it. It is their right to do it it, without someone else telling them that they can have a week's skiing but they can't pay for education.
They are 2 systems that operate side by side. I have friends who went to private and state themselves, send their DCs to private and state and have family members who use private as well as state.It isn't them and us.Even if people can't afford it they can aspire to it.
It is like the old story about the difference between the Americans and the British-the American sees a millionaire drive past and says 'I am going to be like that one day' and the Brit says 'it's not fair why should he have it when I can't have it'!
A good education should be free for all, if it was there would be no need for anyone to pay. However, in reality it isn't and never will be-or not until people come out of their 'nice little villages' with 'nice little village schools' and opt to live near work and send their DCs to the nearest inner city school.
I always stand up for state schools and am anti grammar schools, however I think it is more important to have freedom of choice. There are state schools that my DCs would go to 'over my dead body'-I would do everything to keep them out of them and would HE if no alternative.
I have used the state system and am perfectly happy with it, and would stick with it if I won the lottery, however I resent being told that I should use it!

Again, we have to be very careful about this phrase "freedom of choice." It is only a genuine choice if it is available to all - if the polar opposite is not a choice but an imposition or a Hobson's Choice, it's not a genuine one.

There is no choice anyway in the state system,UnquietDad-you try getting into an oversubscribed school if you aren't top of the criteria list!
The whole school choice thing is a complete myth-it should read, 'freedom of choice if there is space'. Therefore you could say that those who opt out and pay are doing the rest of us a favour by freeing up spaces.

There is no fair system. Dollius is making a great deal out of doing what 95% of the population (not sure of correct figure)do anyway, but carefully 'cherry picking' the state school she uses. Would she stick to the same principles if she was living in London?

piscesmoon - it's 93% nationally but with huge regional variations. I linked to this recently, with some interesting discussions following.

here

Data is 3 years old, I'm afraid, but it's the best we have.