To think that banning teachers from being members of the BNP is outrageous!

[londonone]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8112747.stm

Now I abhor the BNP and their policies however they are a LEGAL political party and as a teacher I would find it appalling that my freedom to join legal political parties was being curtailed.

If the establishment believe the BNP to be that abhorrent then they should make them illegal. If a teacher acts in a racist, sexist, homophobic way AT WORK, then discipline them on that basis.

If BNP membership is to be banned then what about the SWP, some would say they are as extreme.

yes, and the joke is that the SWP doesn't actually have any workers in it....

Yes YABU... what if there was a black/ Aisian/ Polish child in that teacher's class? Anyone who is in a service paid for by taxes should not be allowed to join as the people they think of as second class citizens may be the people who need that service from them... and may be funding their salary.

"Joining a political party, however abhorrent, is not a discriminatory act. Discrimination implies doing something to someone."

But joining a neo-Nazi party involves funding it; that means you are doing something. It's active, not passive. And when you're paid to care for and educate kids of all backgrounds, then you're really facing a conflict of interests if you're also actively involved in a party seeking to discriminate against some of them on grounds that have nothing to do with their own qualities as people.

I notice people supporting the BNP's stance are all going for theocratic/extremist Islam. What about liberal Judaism? Why are liberal Jews bad news and deserving of expulsion at BNP hands? And what about Afro-Caribbeans? And what about moderate Islam, Hindus, Sikhs... it's all bullshit, frankly. Racist bullshit. Fight for human rights, sure, argue against sexist discrimination, absolutely, but to want to boot people out based on ethnic heritage would also mean sending educated, Westernised women of Afghani extraction "back" to the tender mercies of the Taliban, so how the hell you can argue that's a feminist stance I do not know.

And I don't see why teachers (part of whose job description is to promote social cohesion and a respect for other's cultures - OFSTED even score on that, fgs) should think funding such a party is congruent with that responsibility. Nobody is saying that you can't join the BNP. They're saying you can't be paid by the tax-payer, and entrusted with the education of kids of all kinds of backgrounds, if you want to fund a political party that actively seeks to discrimate purely on the basis of race/religion.

Qually.... excellently put!

qually......would it be ok if a teacher was say a member of the communist party?...

I ask again, what if a teacher was a member of SInn Fein or, indeed, the Ulster Unionists? Could such a teacher be trusted to give fair treatment to Catholic/Protestant DC? Both these political parties not only have close links with (at least formerly) very violent people, but have also engaged in sectarian discrimination for quite a long time...

exactly.....have there been any answers to that?

I took my daughter to parent and toddler swimming. At the end of the session was having a shower and someone come along said 'You have to get out, it's women-only swimming session now'. I was a bit put out so went to the cafe to see what was going in - imagine my surprise that they have thirty-foot high curtains which they pulled across to black things out so that nobody can even watch from the cafe.

BTW, while Sinn Fein have links to terrorists, UUP do not. Ironically the UUP basically got wiped out because they are not hardline enough. It's all about the DUP now, with Rev Ian Paisley for so long the leader, someone who is undobutedly more extreme than many BNP members. That said, the DUP are not linked to terrorism either. The PUP are linked to the UVF, but are a very marginal party.

Solidgoldbrass, I just don't know enough about the Troubles and the current situation in NI to comment either way. I can certainly see why a blanket ban on teachers' membership might be appropriate as a starting point, if party alignment automatically equals a discriminatory attitude to kids from the other religion (I do know that historically the discrimination against Catholics in employment terms was shocking). I was, though, (naively?) under the impression that both sides were moving towards a more conciliatory and cooperative approach. And, as far as I am aware, neither party wants to deprive non Protestants/Catholics of voting rights, let alone kick them out of Eire altogether. Which makes both parties less extremist and aggressively prejudiced than the BNP.

Daftpunk, communism is not something I have any time for whatsoever (those in power always ending up more equal than others and other such obvious problems) but if people want to campaign for an egalitarian utopia that incidentally involves removing everyone else's individual liberties/human rights, then that doesn't seem to discriminate inborn against specific pupils in terms of their racial or religious heritage/biology. It's that very personal application to the kids in the care of those teachers, and the intention to deprive them of their right to live in their own country, that is IMO the problem with teachers joining the BNP.

I suppose I come at this, as we all do, from our own perspective, and mine is a Quaker belief in the importance of dialogue and neutral ground if conflict is ever to be resolved in any positive way. A teacher's role is to facilitate that amongst the pupils, and if you are openly and of your own volition identified with a group that wishes some of your pupils extreme and vindictive ill, how can you care for all of them properly? So that's my line in the sand - I think choosing to pay for the active promotion of extreme and vindictive ill towards some of your pupils unfits you for teaching.

I like women's only swimming sessions too. Not sure what the problem is - especially in a world where lap-dancing clubs are used by businessmen for corporate outings. Really inclusive. (Not aimed at you, someGuy, sure you're not an ogling creep.)

Qually: It's also my understanding that the majority of political organisations in Ireland are moving towards reconciliation etc but I was simply tyring to think of an example of groups that have had a history of bigotry and violence without lapsing into Islamophobia or completely improbable situations.

Teachers should be allowed to join the BNP.......at the same time as black people are allowed to join the BNP. In other words, why should it be ok for teachers but not for non-white people? Goose, gander?

In all seriousness, I believe that teachers should in no way, be allowed to have membership of such a party.

And.....the NI comparison is a very good one!

The ni comparison really doesn't stand up, I don't think. I suppose you could look at how counterproductive the attempts to silence sinn féin were in the 80s. If people are voting for a party in large numbers it is probably not useful to stigmatise them for doing so.

SomeGuy It could be argued that the uup didn't need an illegal paramilitary organisation as they had an armed, sectarian police force on their side.

Qally interesting, and insulting, that you refer to people who don't draw the same line in the sand as you as arguing the BNP's case. If you can't see the democratic principle at stake in allowing a government to dictate what public servants can vote for (which is increasingly being argued for on this thread, and is the principle at stake here) then you perhaps aren't quite as opposed to Communism as you think.

As for women's only swimming - we have one poster implying that most men are pervs and another that it is liberating for women for a special curtain to be drawn around them to protect them from these pervs. It's as stupid as the argument that strip clubs are empowering for women.

The power in both situations is all with the men and a few women touristing in lapdancing club to show how they're cool with it, or enjoying a women-only swim as their choice alongside other women they know are coerced into living that way, don't make either thing any less sexist.

"Qally interesting, and insulting, that you refer to people who don't draw the same line in the sand as you as arguing the BNP's case."

Huh? Where did you get that from? I said that I think it's when a teacher chooses to pay for the promotion of racism (as in, joins the BNP) that I draw that line. I don't believe that someone who disagrees, on grounds of freedom of speech/belief, is therefore a BNP apologist. Obviously someone could hold that position in all good faith, whilst themselves abhorring racism. I happen to disagree, but I understand and respect the thinking. The BNP funding teacher is the racist, not someone trying to uphold civil liberties.

I don't see any problem with women only swimming sessions; I enjoy that freedom from hassle and I can quite see why other women might - I think you're making massive assumptions if you think all Muslim women are oppressed. I can definitely think of some very feisty individuals. Can't argue that there are also appalling and disgusting abuses, though. I'm really grateful for the protection and rights I enjoy, and to the generations of women who fought for them. I'm not about to be an apologist for the oppression of women, be it Islamic, Mormon or Haitian, and I've never had much time with moral relativism on this stuff. I repeat: what I don't get is why fundamentalist Islamic oppression of women is remotely relevant to whether teachers should be allowed to join the BNP.

Interesting, in the context of this discussion.

Oh this is a difficult one - I Abhor the BNP and i don't think they should be allowed to exist. Its the national front with a different name.

I think the teacher should be made to choose - he/she either wants to be a teacher or a Nazi, its that simple.

BUT sadly, the BNP is a legal party, so where do you draw the line? Because there are some turdarse people out there with some vile beliefs, they just don't happen to be a signed up member of the BNP, or the "we happily squash snails and laugh about it" party.

You cannot dictate teachers beliefs, however you do not want those influencing their teaching. I cannot see how someone who would join the racist fuckwit party BNP which is an overtly racist organisation, would be able to teach in an unbiased nature with regards to religeon, race etc. Nup, his choice.

It does raise the question then however, that perhaps teaching should be regarded as a politically sensitive position and that teachers should not be able to MPs at all.

'what I don't get is why fundamentalist Islamic oppression of women is remotely relevant to whether teachers should be allowed to join the BNP'.

Daerie me, Qally, and there was me for a brief second actually taking into consideration some of what you have said.

Men in swimming pools are a "hassle" now?

What a delightful country we live in.

Half the population are an inconvenience but you are ok with accommodation being made wiyh public money to enable the oppression of women, as long as it is convenient to you.

If discrimination on gender grounds is ok, then what exactly is the problem with the bnp and their particular flavour of inequality? Some consistency would be nice here.

Having my boobs stared at and my personal space invaded is a hassle, yep. The vast majority of men don't act like lecherous creeps, but the few who do are seriously irritating. If you choose to extrapolate "a few leches make swimming a bit of a hassle" into "all men are bastards who lech" I can't stop you, but, for the second time in this thread, you are reading words that are not there. Must make formulating a decent argument a bit tricky, but then that's your problem and not mine.

We have over 50s only, kids and parents only, and "serious" swimmer only sessions at my local pool, too. So nope, don't think the women only ones are a big deal, especially as in my area the vast majority of women attending them are white. How you get that those sessions are all enabling female oppression on public money, I don't know, but nothing like expecting to get your prejudices confirmed before hearing the facts, is there.

moondog, I don't share your need to relive adolescence online.

londonone, your responses can be very facetious. I think you realise that swimming pools don't need to be mentioned in the Koran to be covered by various interpretations of relative guidelines.
I know many moderate muslim women who dress modestly because they believe it is the right way to behave, that it shows respect to women. Many feel sorry for western women who they see as being over-sexualised and objectified and forced to dress and act to suit men. You may of course disagree, but are you so arrogant to assume that you are 100% correct and they are brainwashed idiots? They are not necessarily oppressed because they don't think and act like you do.
I have no problem with female only swimming, I think its an excellent idea. We have women only gyms as well. There is seniors only swimming, kids only swimming, theres even an hour reserved just for the unemployed at one pool I know of. Are they all opppressed too?

Why don't you save your outrage for real examples of oppression of women, you don't need to go searching for them.

SGB, I'm sure there as many wankers and violent hangers on in the SWP as there are in lots of groups. There are for sure more in the BNP though, who take pride in recruiting excons and thugs into not only the party membership, but also the executive.

And daftpunk, jokes on you, there are an awful lot of workers in the Socialist Worker, many in good jobs. Its not all about the fringe, its a much bigger organisation than you realise, its international.

If your a teacher you should not be allowed to become a member and fund the BNP I am surprised this thread is here. ( if they wish to vote for them thats there choice)

But to be a member of a well known racist party how on earth would you be capable of fairly treating all children in your classroom.

In fact anyone that is paid by the tax payers to perform a public services I.E DR's Nurses Police Teachers fireman an so on shouldn't be allowed to become members of any party as its a conflict of interests. I do not believe for one minute that someone that is a Member and is funding a party such as the BNP will be able to provide the same service to a Polish person as they would an English person

consfused! Why are we talking about boobs in swimming pools now?

Loool LEM I was thinking the same thing

I guess i should address the boobs thing - I don't have a problem with my 38HH boobs being stared at, and believe me, it happens alot. I certainly wouldn't want to go to womens only swimming for that reason. However, if it means i can avoid having to look at men in those bloody awful speedos, then yes, i would go.

I don't have a problem with women-only sessions in swimming pools any more than I have a problem with no-children sessions or pensioners-only sessions - no one can use the pool all the time but it won't do anyone any serious harm to wait a ocuple of hours or go on a different day to have their swim.
I would have a problem with (say) council funding for women-only - or men-only pools ie public money funding a building that only half the public are allowed to use.

And, re the argument about Muslim women choosing, in some cases, to cover themselves up I respect their right to choose, of course, but something about it makes me uneasy. There is pressure on Western women to engage in more sexual display, but less of an undercurrent that some men think themselves entitled to beat you up or even kill you for 'unacceptable' dressing than there is with the 'modest' dress business.

oooh, yes, that winds me up too SGB - our pool has two pools, a big pool and a little pool. When they have the aqua aerobics they close the little pool too - um, WHY? It is often at the time which is best for DD to go and i can't see how it affects what is going on in the big pool - or are they scared that i might sneakily do some of the exercises that i haven't paid for?