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To suggest that enforced national food rationing might help solve the nation's obesity problem?

350 replies

Lucia39 · 30/05/2009 00:13

During the period 1939-1954 the nation's diet was, apparently, the healthiest it has ever been.

So would a similar regime assist helping those who are increasingly "dimensionally challenged"?

Vegetables, fruit, and pulses would be more freely available but meat, dairy produce, sugar and fats would be strictly rationed.

Any thoughts?

OP posts:
Lucia39 · 30/05/2009 23:58

edam Quote ["Lucia, I don't know why I'm wasting my breath on someone who never, ever, makes any attempt to take on board another point of view... but here goes anyway."] End quote.
Once again you are making sweeping statements that are not borne out by the facts. I suggest you review a selection of my posts.

edam Quote ["My godmother was, in fact, in touch with people up and down the country."] End quote.
Your point being?

edam Quote ["She was heavily involved in the Labour movement, as was her entire family."] End quote.
Purely as a matter of interest would this be prior to, or after, her experience of being a young mother, living in a town, unable to work and "starving. Literally"? [sic]

edam Quote ["She talks about her experience of the war, indeed, but also knows a damn sight more about the wider experience of other working class people than almost anyone else around. Not just her own family, but the wider world."] End quote.
The above comment would appear to be paradoxical. Your godmother cannot ever possibly know "a damn sight more about the wider experience of other working class people" because she is not them. Experiences are subjective and personal. She may have had experiences that are similar to those of others but she has not had their personal experiences. Her experiences are de facto purely her own.

Neither is your godmother unique. Other surviving elderly people of her generation have had similar experiences. Individuals, living or dead, have left us their impressions via memoirs, letters, and reminiscences, many of which have been published.

I'm not quite sure why you have felt it necessary to post all this extraneous information about your godmother. However, leaving this reason aside I don't think you quite understand the function of historiography. Someone like your godmother has had valuable experiences. However, what you appear to be confused by is the way such experiences are interpreted by historians. We cannot say "because Mrs Brown and her friends in Bristol experienced X in 1941 it follows that everyone in Britain in 1941 had the same experience". Of course certain events will have had similar impacts [bombing for instance] but depending on the event under discussion and the anecdotes pertaining to it, the historian has to recognise that all personal observations are precisely that, i.e. personal. Thus while they may be borne out by events, the observations of others, or documented evidence, it cannot be assumed that every personal anecdote about events that took place nearly 70 years ago is objective, verbatim, and of itself, an unequivocal fact.

edam Quote ["Dismiss her as one person if you like, but she is MUCH more impressive and has a much more distinguished life than 99.5% of the people around today."] End quote.
I wasn't aware I'd dismissed anybody. However, I would suggest that if you are going to cite statistical information you need evidence to support it. So unless you have personal knowledge of "99.5%" of the population and their experiences your attempt to justify your godmother's status looks somewhat contrived.

edam Quote ["Unlike most of us lucky enough to be live in Western countries she has seen starvation up close."] End quote.
Hardly surprising given that you've already told us she herself had been "starving". Unless, of course you are intimating that she observed starvation in non-Western countries.

edam Quote ["When she was a child, people who dared to get involved in the fight for political representation of the working classes were often thrown out of their jobs and homes."] End quote.
This is hardly an earthshattering revelation! We know that miners and other workers were often evicted if they had taken part in strikes or were attempting to unionise their comrades.

edam Quote ["Including my godmother herself, when her father dared to stand for the council. (The mine owner was a Tory who told his workers how to vote.)"] End quote.
Let me get this straight. Your godmother and her family were evicted after her father attempted to stand for the council because the mine owner was a Tory who instructed workers how to vote? This doesn't fit into the historical time scale [unless your godmother is now approaching one hundred and forty years old]! No boss/mine owner could have coerced any employee about voting following the passage of the 1872 Act which created the secret ballot.

Of course known political activitists and organisers were often victimised by owners and bosses to "make an example", thereby attempting to intimidate others into "toeing the line" but, after 1872, your godmother's father could not have been evicted for not voting as the mine-owner wished because no one would have known how he had voted!

edam Quote ["She also trudged the streets of Manchester with her mother in order to raise funds to set up the first birth control clinic there. Even though it was clearly intended for married women, people spat in their faces."] End quote.
This was obviously very laudable, given that similar campaigns were being undertaken in Britain at around the same period under the formidable Marie Stopes.

edam Quote ["She also helped members of the International Brigade who survived the Spanish Civil War get back into this country, when the government was trying to keep them out."]
I am somewhat perplexed by this statement as it doesn't appear to tally with known historical facts. Walter Gregory, A Shallow Grave [1986] served in the British Battalion of the International Brigade from December 1936 until 1939. He recounts his release from imprisonment at Ondaretta following the end of the war and how he, along with his fellow British prisoners, was taken to the French/Spanish border at Irun. He entered France and returned to the UK without any problems. The fate of Spanish Republican soldiers who escaped to France was far more severe and indeed the Republicans were treated so atrociously in the hastily erected French-run prisons that many preferred to return to Spain and risk prison or execution. The USSR behaved with equal callousness and refused all Spanish refugees except senior party cadres. Of the Spanish refugees, the British government was prepared to accept a limited number of senior officials, but other Spanish Republicans were only allowed to enter the country if a Briton stood as their guarantor. Given that few Spaniards had any British friends only a couple of hundred managed to enter the UK. However, these were Spanish soldiers not returning Britons. I therefore do not understand your claim that your godmother assisted in getting individuals "back" into this country. As British subjects they would have had no problem re-entering. Or are you, in fact, referring to these Spanish ex-combatants?

OP posts:
Starbear · 30/05/2009 23:59

Because my Gran was a an unfaithful, cell Block H, Joan Crawford type person I bet if she had wrote a book it would sell like hot cakes made of brick dust

SolidGoldBrass · 31/05/2009 00:13

The obesity 'crisis' is mainly caused by the pressure on women to be thin which leads them to go on stupid diets which fuck up their metabolisms and can make them get unhealthily obese. Many fat people are in fact healthier than many thin ones: if you eat a varied diet and are active, you will be healthy whatever size you are.

edam · 31/05/2009 00:28

Lucia, do you really find it impossible to understand that someone could be involved in politics AND be a young mother? AND have an extended family beyond your husband serving overseas?

Will try for the very last time... if you were in the forces, you got fed. If you were serving at home, in the Land Army, for instance, you got fed. If you were able to work in a factory or other organisation, you got to eat in the British Canteens.

If you had a newborn baby, you could not go out to work, you had to survive on the ration. If you lived in a town, you couldn't grow sufficient fruit or veg to supplement the ration in any meaningful way.

People were short of food under rationing, that's the whole point, it was not enjoyable or good for people's health.

edam · 31/05/2009 00:29

(Starbear, I'd buy it!)

ChippingIn · 31/05/2009 00:32

edam - you have the patience of a saint.

Lucia39 · 31/05/2009 01:52

edam Quote ["Lucia, do you really find it impossible to understand that someone could be involved in politics AND be a young mother? AND have an extended family beyond your husband serving overseas?"] End quote.
Ah new information has suddenly been brought to light. You never mentioned any husband or any extended family serving overseas in your previous posts! You really must endeavour to give all your facts first time and not persist in padding things out as you go along!

edam Quote ["Will try for the very last time... if you were in the forces, you got fed. If you were serving at home, in the Land Army, for instance, you got fed. If you were able to work in a factory or other organisation, you got to eat in the British Canteens."] End quote.
You are misinformed, yet again! The British Restaurants [not canteens] were promoted by The Wartime Meals Division which lent local authorities money to open these for the public. This same Division also encouraged the setting up of industrial canteens. Hence if you were a factory worker you ate in the factory canteen while you were on shift.

edam Quote ["If you had a newborn baby, you could not go out to work, you had to survive on the ration. If you lived in a town, you couldn't grow sufficient fruit or veg to supplement the ration in any meaningful way."] End quote.
Yet more erroneous statements [this appears to be your speciality]. Everybody had to survive on the ration. Of course there were some who used the Black Market but legally everyone was expected to make do with what they were allowed. The WVS was established in 1938 and amongst its activities it set up and ran national day nurseries which enabled other women to go out to work. In 1941 Britain became the first country to conscript women. However, women with children under 14 had the option to participate or not as they wished. Therefore being unemployed would not have been a stigma for your godmother, as one of your earlier posts suggested.

Mind you given her apparent age, as implied in your previous post, maybe she didn't need to work. After all, being a mother at 67+ must have made her something of a local, not to say national, biological phenomenon!

Now let us consider your statement about not being able to grow vegetables. Anybody that had access to a piece of land, however small, was actively encouraged to plant a few vegetables. The "Dig for Victory" campaign was one of the major success stories of the Home Front. Over one million additional allotments were established and by 1943 over a million tons of vegetables were being grown in gardens and allotments in towns and cities across the country. Even those with back-yards were encouraged to utilise window boxes and plant pots, thus ensuring a small amount of produce to supplement the ration.

edam Quote ["People were short of food under rationing, that's the whole point, it was not enjoyable or good for people's health.] End quote.
By contemporary and current standards this is true, meaning that people were not able to consume exactly what they wanted, whenever they wanted. However, rationing ensured the equitable distribution of resources. It guaranteed that those who needed extra calories and nutrition received them and the diet, whilst it may have been monotonous and sparce, was sufficient to enable healthy bodily functioning during wartime. Of course people grumbled, particularly about the paucity of ingredients and lack of meat, but rationing ensured that everyone had a reasonable and balanced diet. It may not have been "enjoyable" as we might define the term today but it was necessary for survival during a period of imminent national peril.

I would recommend that you acquaint yourself with some 20th century social history. It might assist in preventing more errors and anomalies in your posts.

OP posts:
scottishmummy · 31/05/2009 02:06

lucia your fingers must be worn to stumps all the cutting & pasting

Starbear · 31/05/2009 08:34

Sorry Edam I love you but I have enjoyed Lucia's post. I have very little will power and rationing would suit me. I would also like to dig for victory as I love my garden.
Just not given the time to look after it!maybe if it was more important I could.
Carry on girls I'm enjoying this.

sarah293 · 31/05/2009 09:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 31/05/2009 09:25

lucia - HOW do you find the time to write a reasoned essay responding to everyone's posts? Seriously, it's all I can do to quickly type a few lines and then I have to go!

Starbear · 31/05/2009 09:47

Second Fanjo, Would love to write like that. Must dash House work doesn't do it self

Judy1234 · 31/05/2009 10:16

They were healthier though and they couldn't get sugar easily and ate better food. My father was a teenager in the WWII and he bred rabbits (and used their skins too). My mother was critical of him (they didnt' get on despite being married from 1953 until she died in 2004) because his family was middle class and she said took b ribes - extra food and rations from contacts whereas her family didn't although her grandmother who had 15 children did keep a pig and grow some veg etc.

This Government could do a huge amount to help the nation's help but vested food industry interests will preclude that and we all know how corrupt just about all politicians are.

I don't really eat any processed food and since I gave it up I have not caught a germ or cold or been ill for 12 months. I find that absolutely incredible and it could be completely coincidental but I have felt so good and happy that I feel it has to be said and I want to keep sayign it but it's been absolutely miraculous and the ability to lose the taste for foods you used to think were lovely and need is wonderful too.

Morloth · 31/05/2009 10:22

Riven, I personally know of 2 "fat" people who can run me into the ground any day. They have better cholesterol, better blood sugar and one can maintain 10km/hour for 30 mins on the treadmill - I am on the ground gasping after about 5 mins at that speed.

Overall good health is not directly tied to body composition and even less to actual weight/BMI.

The Kate Harding website has some interesting info, if you are interested.

duchesse · 31/05/2009 10:29

Yes, my mother always warbles on about how good rationing was. It led to vastly improved nutrition for a great many very deprived people, so that was a very good thing. I can't however but notice anecdotally that everyone I know in the age bracket that lived their early years through rationing (ie my parents' generation, born in 1938/9) has the most terrible teeth. Most of them also seem obsessed with sweet things and fat. So I can't help but think that maybe children were nutritionally deprived during rationing (which lasted into my parents' early teens) but that the overall health of the population improved from its former appalling reliance on bread, tea and dripping.

I just think that crap food should be taxed at top whack, and fruit and veg should be a lot cheaper than it is. This thing about supermarkets maintaining the price of fruit and veg year round to ensure availability over seasonality should definitely be made illegal.

Morloth · 31/05/2009 10:35

duchesse "I just think that crap food should be taxed at top whack, and fruit and veg should be a lot cheaper than it is."

THIS makes perfect sense. Basically if it comes in a box/packet there is a good bet it contains added salt/sugar/transfat. Do you guys have great big greengrocers here? I live in the city and there isn't a single greengrocer available here. There is North End Road in Fulham but I find the quality really rubbish.

When we were home a couple of years ago we went to our favourite fruit market to stock up and I actually had to take a moment to get my breath, I had forgotten about the sheer abundance of green/fresh things available in Oz.

The land here is so fertile, I am amazed that you can drive through the glorious countryside see fields of vegetables growing and sheep grazing, pull into a pub and get some nasty packaged meal reheated onto your plate. Totally bizzare.

dizietsma · 31/05/2009 10:46

People were fat during the war, OP.

Black markets arise whenever things are prohibited. I don't think increasing the power and money organised crime can make off prohibition and rationing of certain food is worth the risk.

Also, helping lower obesity should probably be addressed with education, psychological and financial support.

Some people are genuinely ignorant of what is healthy, so we need to make sure that hard to reach (often illiterate) portion of the population is educated.

The links between obesity and poverty have been clearly demonstrated over and over again. Just visit America, it's not the rich people who are seriously obese.

Being fat isn't just about not knowing when to put the biscuit down. For most people overeating is a coping mechanism. I have an anxiety disorder, and overeat because it stops the anxious feelings in my stomach. I also overeat because when you eat enough of certain foods it will induce certain states, just as if you medicated yourself.

I first really started to overeat when my stepdad started beating my mum. I met a "bad kid", who told me that if I stole money from my mum I could buy as many sweeties as I wanted (pretty dumb that I didn't figure it out before the age of 9, but it just didn't cross my mind). This was a revelation, not only could I get back at my mum for being dumb enough to stay with the repulsive asshole, but I could medicate all the anxiety away with the judicious application of lots of food.

Then I feel bad about being overweight, and I eat because I feel bad, then people make it all about my "irresponsibility", and "lack of control", so I feel bad, so I overeat. Then I see that everywhere in my culture unless you're, what, a size 8 you're a fugly minger and I feel bad and I overeat. I try to go to the gym (whenever I can afford it, which is rare), to exercise and feel better, but I feel so judged by the skinny beautiful people whilst I'm wheezing along with my wobbly bits hanging out, that I feel bad and I go home and overeat. They probably aren't judging me, but I still feel like they are. Because of judgemental people like the OP.

I know all this, and I still overeat. I'm very well informed about what is healthy to eat, and in what quantities, but I still overeat. I'm pretty sure it'll take some awesome therapist to help me work this one out. But I'm too freaking poor to afford one!

See, it's a complex issue.

Starbear · 31/05/2009 11:04

duchesse Totally agree It's cheaper to get chocolate & yukky sandwiches than lovely fruit & veg. Also it would be nice to be able to wash it on the go. Where are our water fountains!

laweaselmys · 31/05/2009 11:13

Er what happens if your matobalism is out of whack (like mine is) and if you ate ration levels of food you would literally starve to death.

Great I'm really excited about this new regime where I get to die and a few other people get to be a bit smaller. Fantastic.

3rdandBird · 31/05/2009 11:15

"I just think that crap food should be taxed at top whack, and fruit and veg should be a lot cheaper than it is. This thing about supermarkets maintaining the price of fruit and veg year round to ensure availability over seasonality should definitely be made illegal."

I totally agree!

Who on earth wants to buy strawberries in November, imported from who knows where, that taste awful, just for the "availabilty"?

That goes for any fruit and veg sold out of season. The swede i stupidly bought last week turned out to be woody, yuck! I won't be buying a swede now until after the first frost.

I think teaching kids how to cook at home and at school could help with obesity. Teaching them how to cook proper food, none of this sauce from a packet shit. Proper home cooked, healthy food where you control the salt/fat content. I think part of the reason for obesity is lack of education about food, the lack of people who know how to cook and the instant availabilty of fast food takeways.

Starbear · 31/05/2009 11:26

3rdandBird Teaching kids to cook doesn't always work. My mum is a brilliant cook. Taught all of us to cook Brother is a great cook & huge & unhealthy smokes too! Sister good cook but doesn't work o/s the home & walks everywhere she's a JW. Me, like my mum show my love by cooking! I'm a size 14/16. Baby brother skinny can boil an egg but chose not to.
laweaselmys I really understand but I'm sure people should be free to be big but not obese and unhealthy. I really don't need that pastry I buy with a latte do I.

laweaselmys · 31/05/2009 11:33

I'm confused by your comment, starbear I was talking about the OP.

I don't know how I feel about taxing crap heavily. It would depend what they defined as crap really. I need to eat lots of meat, dairy etc I don't really need to eat pastries but if I'm in a hurry will because I don't necessarily have time to make a fresh healthy but fatty meal all the time, and a pastry will give me an instant fix to get me through to when I can. Bit of a dilemma really.

Judy1234 · 31/05/2009 11:36

If cakes and chocolate cost £10 each people would soon move back to potatoes, spinach, chicken, beans.

Starbear · 31/05/2009 11:36

laweaselmys sorry I'm on MN instead of getting housework done so not making much sense. I'm off now Help me with my addiction to MN as well!

Judy1234 · 31/05/2009 11:53

My mother never developed the taste for sweet things though ebcause of WWII. For the rest of her life she never ate a pudding, chocolate or sweets. Mind you when she was ill in hospital before she came home to die she was the only lady in her 70s on the ward who still had their own teeth. One night a nurse came round "give-us yer teeth, pet". She couldn't make out what the lady was saying until she realised everyone else each night was taking out their false teeth to put in a bowl.

Anyone who thinks they have a slow metabolism look at the fat or should I say large lady on this programme www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00ksh7c/10_Things_You_Need_to_Know_About_Losing_Weight/
she was tested and hers wasn't slow. She wrote down everything she ate - or so she thought - but urine tests showed she was conning herself into thinking she ate 50% fewer calories than she was.