To refuse to allow my son to serve anymore detentions?

[CrazyNites]

My son is in year 8 at secondary school. He has always been a good kid at school, gets on with his work, tries hard, never been in trouble or anything.

But in his class are a set of kids who just cause havok basically. They shout out, mess around, cheek the teacher, throw stuff ...

Well the teacher has gotten into the habit of giving the entire class a detention whenever they play up.

When it first happened, DS was devestated because like I said, he's never been in trouble before. I told him it was probably a one off to shock the ones misbehaving.

Then it happened again a few days later. I spoke to the teacher who confirmed that DS is never involved in the bad behaviour but her new policy is to punish the entire class to stop the other kids supporting the ones messing around by laughing etc. I still wasn't happy and told her so.

Anyway in the past 2 weeks it has happened a further 3 times and I'm just not having it. DS has sports clubs after school and these constant detentions, aside from being extremely irritating when he's done nothing wrong, are leaving us with little time for tea before his clubs.

He's saying he wants to move school so that he doesn't get detentions all the time. AIBU to write a letter to his teacher saying that I will be picking him up at 3.15 everyday on the dot and will not tolerate anymore detentions unless he was specifically involved?

As a parent, I would let this happen once and once only then approach the teacher first and if not happy, then the teacher's line manager (subject coordinator/head of year).

As a teacher, I think the teacher in question must be struggling with discipline to resort to this technique. I have been teaching 12 years and have never used this and never would.

I was bringing up the issue that parents taking kids out of detention without engaging in a dialogue with the school about it causes all sorts of issues.

OP said she planned to write a letter to school saying she was taking child out of detention. That isn't engaging in a dialogue and doesn't help a home/school relationship.

But going back to OP it seems she has engaged in some kind of a dialogue about it since the teacher confirmed it wasn't her DS but I personally think it would be beneficial to work with the school on this one rather than taking her son out of detention with a letter. (It could also set him apart from his peers and when he knows he has a "get out of jail free card" it could potentially start to play up to take advantage of it- not saying that will happen but I have seen it happen many times- maybe I'm jaded from working in a school with way too many naughty kids and pushy parents!)

lol at "dear Greensneeze"

spot the teacher

as Milly says though, if the child has done nothing wrong he shouldn't be punished. If the teacher has tied herself up in some desperate knot in which she has convinced herself that punishing innocent pupils is a good idea, then she needs to seek help.

And as for the healthy home/school dialogue - I would say the tone of that dialogue (or lack thereof) has already been set by the teacher's outrageous and ignorant behaviour. Parents aren't solely responsible for establishing a decent relationship.

Having taught for years, I can confirm that whole class detntions do not work, unless the whole class really has been naughty and even then whole class detentions don't work very well. My own advice would be to write to the teacher and copy it to the Head of subject and the head of year, telling each of the three that you have copied to the others. That way, somebody will have to address it.

If the teacher has said that your child isn't doing anything wrong, then all she will do by persisting in giving class detentions is encourage him to do something wrong so that he at least earns the detention.

It is very wrong indeed to expect the 'good' pupils to 'manage' the 'bad' pupils. The teacher should be working on encouraging the 'goods' so that the others realise the benefits fo being 'good' and then punishing the ring-leaders/those who continue to misbehave. Management should be helping the teacher to do this by upping the praise/reward system for 'goods' and upping the punishments (with the teacher) for 'bads'.

thank heaven, a teacher with her head screwed on properly

well said janeite

Firstly, the legal position is that school ARE permitted to keep your dc for an hour so long as they give 24 hours' notice. If your child fails to attend, he could theoretically be put in isolation or excluded.

However repeated whole class after school detentions are ineffectual. Much better to have trouble makers 'timed out' with the dept. or by senior teachers, & punish them.

What I usually do with the class from hell is select two ringleaders & arrange for them to be excluded from two lessons (we do this departmentally - if they kick off wherever they're sent, they are lugged off to isolation). I then plan an absolutely cracking lesson & deliver it to the remainder, pointedly praising them throughout & at the end for their fantastic behaviour (sweets or other prizes help).

It's usually enough to re-set the group dynamic - the troublemakers return & find that the group's had a taste of a well planned disruption-free lesson, greatly prefer it, & are now finding them utterly tiresome.

OP, I agree you should contact school - intially a conversation with the teacher & if no joy the Head of Dept. (who should already be aware & providing support tbh...)

May have head screwed on properly but not fingers so please forgive typos.

The teacher may not be at fault. It may be that she has been told by someone senior that she should deal with it as a whole class detention. It may also not be her fault that there is a discipline problem, as by accident or design there is a group of disruptive pupils all in one class. It would seem sensible for the school to split them up.

I would be more worried about the classroom disruption than the detention, but the group detention is increasing the disruptive children's power and control over the whole group. Not only can they ruin other children's time at school, but they can also cause other children to be punished.

I think it is the responsibility of the school to deal with this, not one teacher.

A teacher with her head screwed on???!!! Surely not!

Hmm, I hadn't considered that this teacher might have been told that school policy was to issue lots of collective punishment.

If that's so, then I'm angry for the teacher as well as the children, and wish her luck in finding a better job.

But it seems more likely to me that she is a lazy bossy cow who wouldn't DREAM of asking for help, and thinks if kids don't do what you want them to the fist time, you just keep hammering them, like a broken tv set

have met SO many teachers like that. Particularly while working in teaching.....

If she was lazy she wouldn't be having any detentions but would be buggering off at 3.30.

It sounds like she's pretty desperate and clutching at straws in order to try and come across as tough to the troublemakers. It also sounds like she hasn't yet asked for (or been given, who knows which) sufficient support from management, which is why I think that HoD and HoY need to be consulted, as well as teacher, as it kind of forces everybody's hand a bit then.

Wotulookinat - I can't find a tongue sticking out emoticon so you'll just have to imagine it.

I've been thinking about this as I'm starting to do supply (in primary). I agree whole class punishments wouldn't work, but that children who cause the trouble should miss out on a reward.
I'm planning on doing 2 10 minute reward games at the end of the morning and afternoon. If a child plays up they get a warning and if they do it again they don't get to join in the reward for 2 minutes. I'm already worrying though that if I have to do it I'd be questioned about it!

It can be difficult to establish yourself as a teacher who is no pushover, which you do have to do if you don't want to spend most of your time trying to get the children to actually do some work!

'thank heaven, a teacher with her head screwed on properly'

Just love this type of comment.

I have to say I have known (and know) many teachers and I think I've only ever met two whose heads were screwed on in any way other than properly!

Me too

I meant that as opposed to the teacher in the OP, not teachers generally.

Badly worded, sorry.

The majority of teachers I know (and I know lots and lots) are excelllent, and both my children's schools are fantastic too.

Have not read the whole thread as I have marking to do but the first thing you learn on your PGCE is not to use collective punishments. Complain to Head of house, year, faculty.

As a teacher who regularly controls teenagers I agree with greensneeze.

oh good.

I cannot believe that the teacher has been told by senior management that a collective detention is acceptable. In the schools have worked in the discipline policy makes it very clear that such punishments are not to be used.

I have been thinking about this and what I would do if it were my dd.

I would write a letter saying that you do not wish to undermine the teacher and therefore your child will do the detention but you do not want to see this happening again and can you be told how the schoolis going to deal with this class. Hopefully this will mean the teacher will be supported. I would then explain to dd or your ds what you have said and why.

Hmm, I have to confess I've used it. Once. with a group of students who I knew were at the tipping point of being pissed off enough with the poor behaviour and needed an excuse to exhert some pressure on their peers. But then these were 16-18 year old lads with a history of poor educational achievement who were starting afresh at a new institution. They actually found the experience empowering. Most of them had spent their entire educational career at the mercy of a few who refused to behave. They had suffered greatly as a result and they weren't prepared to let it happen again. But all those years of social conditioning needed a powerful excuse to overcome.

I use a version of it with one of my year 9 groups who are quite difficult. But I am not a teacher who struggles with discipline, I also know it will work. When I have them before lunch I ask for silence before they leave the room. The important point is that I know it will work. They will all be absolutely silent and it will take at most 2 minutes. If it did not work I woudl not use it again with them. But I dont see it as a punishment, all my classs have to be silent before they leave the room, but with this class it is necessary to say to them no one is leaving until I have all of your attention.

YANBU at all. In fact I think you've been pretty reasonable letting him attend the detnetions already imposed.

The 'policy' at my (pretty awful) secondary school some 20 years ago was that unless a particular pupil assumed responsbility for whatever punishable activity had gone on, the whole class got punished.

My parents view (and one which I share, and would follow with my own DC) is you don't do collective punishment - the teacher should be able to identify who is causing trouble, and ensure that pupil or pupils are penalised appropriately, which was exactly what they told my teachers at the time!

Asa result, whilst collective after school detentions were given to classes I was in, I never attended. Gradually other parents took the same line as mine & in the end, the teachers just gave up on detentions altogether.

A blanket punishment has no effect, and in fact is detrimental to the well behaved pupils in the class who lose motivation to behave properly because they know due to the disruptive element in their class they're going to have a detention after every lesson with that teacher anyway. So the effect has to be that behaviour gets worse rather than better!

I think Milly makes a very good point. If these students are genuinely disruptive, they will delight in an opportunity to get the goody-two-shoes into trouble and play up even more. It's a form of bullying.

well, I hope dd doesn't get a teacher who believes in after-school detentions; if she misses her disabled transport she can't get home

and though dd's classmates are nice people, I have known the sort of teenager who would delight in doing that on purpose to someone