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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To refuse to allow my son to serve anymore detentions?

109 replies

CrazyNites · 06/05/2009 12:34

My son is in year 8 at secondary school. He has always been a good kid at school, gets on with his work, tries hard, never been in trouble or anything.

But in his class are a set of kids who just cause havok basically. They shout out, mess around, cheek the teacher, throw stuff ...

Well the teacher has gotten into the habit of giving the entire class a detention whenever they play up.

When it first happened, DS was devestated because like I said, he's never been in trouble before. I told him it was probably a one off to shock the ones misbehaving.

Then it happened again a few days later. I spoke to the teacher who confirmed that DS is never involved in the bad behaviour but her new policy is to punish the entire class to stop the other kids supporting the ones messing around by laughing etc. I still wasn't happy and told her so.

Anyway in the past 2 weeks it has happened a further 3 times and I'm just not having it. DS has sports clubs after school and these constant detentions, aside from being extremely irritating when he's done nothing wrong, are leaving us with little time for tea before his clubs.

He's saying he wants to move school so that he doesn't get detentions all the time. AIBU to write a letter to his teacher saying that I will be picking him up at 3.15 everyday on the dot and will not tolerate anymore detentions unless he was specifically involved?

OP posts:
Greensneeze · 06/05/2009 18:28

How do you know I haven't?

I don't think it's harsh to object to collective punishment. I do think it's harsh to repeatedly punish children who have done nothing wrong because you can't do your job properly though.

TheFallenMadonna · 06/05/2009 18:30

I don't give whole class detentions. I do encourage children to make it clear that they will not tolerate having their learning disrupted. I also do not tolerate laughing at other people's bad behaviour, well, not too much anyway, because that is also disruptive IMO. You need to raise your concerns with head of year/guild/form tutor (whatever your first port of call is in your school) and they need to ensure that the teacher is supported in managing her class.

wotulookinat · 06/05/2009 18:34

Greensneeze, have you? (just read your thread about being trying to be evil, btw - made me smile!)

slayerette · 06/05/2009 18:37

As a teacher, I absolutely agree with Greensneeze. Any teacher who has to resort to whole class detentions in this way is clearly ineffectual and needs his/her line manager alerting so that it can be sorted out before the misbehaving students get any more ill-disciplined. If nothing else, the punishment clearly isn't working - why it is still being used??

Greensneeze · 06/05/2009 18:39

I have to admit, wotulookinat, NO I haven't - not in a teaching context anyway. I teach 3-4 year ol;ds, which is a different thing but no ball game

But I don't think you have to be a secondary teacher to see that repeatedly punishing the whole class is an unimaginative, lazy and inneffective approach.

Do you think parents' views have no validity unless they are teachers then?

wotulookinat · 06/05/2009 18:39

Ahah, you see I partially agree. I am a teacher, and I don't agree with whole class punishments - but maybe the teacher doesn't know what else to do. Perhaps it is a case of a lack of support - it's not fair to jump in and blame the teacher straight away.
By the OP contacting the school, it may well flag it up to the management, that either the teacher needs support, or the class has a problem.

wotulookinat · 06/05/2009 18:41

Oh God, of course the views of parents are valid, and may well help a teacher to see when something isn't working, and is possible having a very negative effect on a pupil, but it does bother me that some parents are very quick to put 100% of the blame onto the teacher.

wotulookinat · 06/05/2009 18:43

FWIW, we told during teacher training that whole class detentions can be very powerful as it can excert peer pressure on the troublesome element. Personally, I think it's not fair, and it usually unworkable. The school management should have noticed a whole class being punished and intervened to help the teacher AND the pupils to move forward.
my moans about school management are a whole different issue though!

Greensneeze · 06/05/2009 18:43

Sorry to be "harsh" again - but when it comes to maintaining discipline within her own class, 100% of the blame belongs squarely with the teacher! If she can't cope she should admit it and ask for help, not take it out on the children who have done nothing wrong.

TheFallenMadonna · 06/05/2009 18:44

The teacher should have already alerted her management IMO. Or at least they should be aware. No shame in having problems with a year 8 class. My year 9s have tested my patience to its limit this year . That this is still continuing is a failure of management as much as anything IMO. What's the subject?

wotulookinat · 06/05/2009 18:46

Well said, theFallenMadonna. There is no shame at all in struggling with a particular class or group of pupils. However, some teachers have a massive lack of support from their superiors and try their best to struggle through. Perhaps she has asked for help and it hasn't been forthcoming.
I'm trying to defend the teacher. She is only human (and we all know teenagers are not!).

cocolepew · 06/05/2009 18:46

I agree with Greensneeze. The same teacher also put a extremely disruptive pupil next to my very good but fearful DD, because "she was good at her work so maybe he would copy her lead". Er no, he just harassed her until I complained again (I bet she hates me )

wotulookinat · 06/05/2009 18:47

it does sound like the teacher is trying - things aren't working yet, but she is making some sort of effort. Sometimes the tactic of putting a disruptive pupil next to a good one works - sometimes it doesn't.

Thandeka · 06/05/2009 18:48

Cor a parents v. teachers thread. Yippee! As a teacher, parents pulling kids out of detentions because their little angel hasn't done anything (which in this case it seems he hasn't) - does not help with discipline in schools. YANBU to be concerned. YABU to pull a kid out from detention without raising your concerns with the school first.

cory · 06/05/2009 18:49

The problem with whole class punishments is that in those cases where it doesn't work at once, the teacher is tempted to continue, and in the end the only result is that there is no incentive to behave because you're going to get punished anyway.

TheFallenMadonna · 06/05/2009 18:51

Greeny - maintaining discipline is a skill that needs to be developed, and responsibility for developing it lies with both the teacher and her managers.
They also need to identify the main offenders and deal with them effectively. And I bet that is a whole school issue. When, at the start of my year 9 lesson I receive 8 or 9 'red reports' (last chance saloon apparently), I realise it's not just about me...

wotulookinat · 06/05/2009 18:51

Very true, Cory.
I think the issue does need to be raised, but not for the blame to be squarely put on the one teacher - sounds like she is having a hard time and doesn't need a lecture from someone in management, but rather needs some support.

Greensneeze · 06/05/2009 18:52

I disagree Thandeka. I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that you will support the school 100% in punishing your hcild if he has done something to deserve it. If he hasn't done anything wrong he doesn't deserve to be punished.

I dislike this slavish "cult of the School" ethic that accuses parents of disloyalty/unsupportiveness if they don't allow their children to suck up blatantly unfair treatment.

If the teacher can't manage the class, the teacher needs to seek help. It's not the children's problem.

Greensneeze · 06/05/2009 18:53

Of course the teacher needs support to develop her skills. But the answer to the OPs question IMO is that she has a perfect right to insist that her child is not repeatedly punished for nothing, and the child has a right to be punished only when he has done something wrong.

TheFallenMadonna · 06/05/2009 19:02

God, if only there were a cult of school...

As I said earlier, I think the OP is fully justified in approaching, for example, her ds's tutor and raising her concerns.

And whole class punisments are not the way to go.

Thandeka · 06/05/2009 19:18

The issue dear Greensneeze is that "if he hasn't done anything wrong......."

At my school we have issues with parents pulling kids out of detentions because they didn't do anything wrong then are being presented with evidence they did. Now am not saying OP's child did do anything wrong but I do think parents need to investigate detentions with the school first before pulling them out of detentions (as many times the kid actually was lying to parent about being innocent and actually was in wrong).

MillyR · 06/05/2009 19:21

But the OP said in her first post that the teacher had confirmed that her son had done nothing wrong. So there is no reason for him to be punished.

cory · 06/05/2009 19:23

Thandeka, I don't see what relevance this has to the OP, as she clearly stated:

"I spoke to the teacher who confirmed that DS is never involved in the bad behaviour but her new policy is to punish the entire class"

Just because in some other school there are badly behaved pupils whose parents think they are little angels doesn't make the OPs ds guilty, does it? Or don't you trust his teacher to know?

onagar · 06/05/2009 19:28

I'd certainly go with speaking to the headmaster first tactfully. Then if nothing changed more firm action.

I suspect the peer pressure idea is overrated as a method anyway. If you have a class of well behaved kids and one slightly misbehaving one then yes he might tend to follow the crowd. If you have several badly behaved ones as in the OP then I don't think peer pressure has any effect at all.

piscesmoon · 06/05/2009 19:30

I would phone the Head of year and say that you aren't happy that your DS's education is being disrupted by certain members of the class messing about, I think this is far more important than the detentions-your DS has the right to learn without disruption.
The teacher needs help. Ask about the discipline policy, there ought to be very clear sanctions that the teacher can follow-ending up with the disruptive DC being removed. Either the teacher isn't following the policy, or there isn't one. Get the Head of year to sort it out and make it quite clear that a,you don't like the whole class detentions and b, it clearly isn't working.
If you get no satisfaction take it to the Head.