To refuse to allow my son to serve anymore detentions?

[CrazyNites]

My son is in year 8 at secondary school. He has always been a good kid at school, gets on with his work, tries hard, never been in trouble or anything.

But in his class are a set of kids who just cause havok basically. They shout out, mess around, cheek the teacher, throw stuff ...

Well the teacher has gotten into the habit of giving the entire class a detention whenever they play up.

When it first happened, DS was devestated because like I said, he's never been in trouble before. I told him it was probably a one off to shock the ones misbehaving.

Then it happened again a few days later. I spoke to the teacher who confirmed that DS is never involved in the bad behaviour but her new policy is to punish the entire class to stop the other kids supporting the ones messing around by laughing etc. I still wasn't happy and told her so.

Anyway in the past 2 weeks it has happened a further 3 times and I'm just not having it. DS has sports clubs after school and these constant detentions, aside from being extremely irritating when he's done nothing wrong, are leaving us with little time for tea before his clubs.

He's saying he wants to move school so that he doesn't get detentions all the time. AIBU to write a letter to his teacher saying that I will be picking him up at 3.15 everyday on the dot and will not tolerate anymore detentions unless he was specifically involved?

Hmm, can I just play devil's advocate here for a moment. Classrooms are complex environments. Peer pressure plays a strong role in how children behave within a classroom. If there are some persistent offenders, the offent because they know they will get approval from their peers. Every time they play up, mess around and are rude, they get approval from their peers by way of laughter or respect. The class is, to some extent, complicit in their behaviuor.

A rarely used tactic is to try and turn the peer approval on it's head. I would suspect if the teacher is doing it at this time of the year they have tried everything else without success. It's the wrong time of year to do it, behaviour patterns are pretty settled by now. What they are trying to do is to make it so uncomfortable for the rest of the class that they stop approving the poor behaviour and start policing themselves.

You could ask your son why he dosen't confront the bad behavers about their behaviour. Does he laugh? Is he afraid of these students? Is the behaviour annoying him? If so, then why dosen't he make his displeasure known? How about the others in the class? Do they say anything? Esentially, the 'alpha' students are the poorly behaved ones. What needs to happen is a change in the heirarchy, make the well behaved students the 'alpha' ones.

Your son 8does* have some power here. the detentions will stop when he and his classmates stop pandering to the whims of the alphas. It takes a lot of courage to do this on his part.

Classroom dynamics, it's a minefield.

But surely it shouldn't be up to a group of children to sort out the class problems?

slug the problem is it will take a collective group of kids to retaliate and this rarely will happen.

I dont think the teacher was wrong to try this but clearly its not working and she/he needs to look into other avenues.

YANBU

It is really bad practise to do whole class punishments in this way. They rarely work. Those causing the troubles generally don't care enough to stop because of them.

I would go and see the head of year or telephone to talk about it.
OFSTED doesn't look kindly on such sanctions either.

Punishments should be for those who have done something wrong, not for those who are behaving. What sort of message does it send out to them?

And I talk as an ex teacher, as wel as a parent.

And it shouldn't be down to individual peers to sort out the bad behaviour. That is for school and the teacher to sort out.

I know of very very few 12 and 13 year old children who would happily stand up and tell a bunch of naughty kids to start behaving, esp in front of his/her class.

I agree the ther children should not be laughing, etc. at those causing trouble but we do not know, however, that this is the case in this situation. Those who do laugh, of course should recieve some form of sanction - as yes, they are encouraging the behaviour and part of the problem. But fror those who sit there and say nothing, and don't laugh, etc. they should not be punished.

I think a better punishment is for those who are behaving badly to have to sit inside/at the back whilst those who have behaved well are doing something fun and interesting.

Ask for a copy of the school's behaviour policy. Ours frowns on whole-group repremands (special circumstances only).

YANBUA, Id have got mad over the school by now

Disgusting to punish all for a few class clowns. i would have allowed the 1st time and thats it

Have you spoken to other parents of children from his class (obvs not the parents of the class clowns) and asked how they feel about it?

My bet is they are not to pleased about this either

I would inform the head, aswell as class teacher, that your son WILL NOT be parcipating in any detentions in the future, unless he is personally involved.

I would write a letter to the Head incorporating what you've said, something like: why you support the school usually, you don't support this method of discipline. As a student who has never been in trouble before, this collective punishment has left ds so demoralised & upset he's asked to move schools. Then pose a rhetorical question, something like, 'Surely, there are better methods and better support for the member of staff in dealing with students who misbehave, than this? I'm sure you'll understand why my son will not be attending any more whole class detentions unless he was specifically involved.

I would just go and collect my child at correct time, would not have thought they were allowed to keep kids after school, insurance etc.

Letter to head is also good idea.

Once is one thing, worth a try, but any more is ridiculous.

We had a couple of whole class detentions when I was at school and as soon as it became obvious that they weren't going to change anyone's behaviour they called it a day.

I can see the idea - that the naughty ones are guilted into behaving well - but clearly it's not worked and so it's not going to work and so they need to stop it.

Talk to the school.

YANBU

FIL kicked up a stink when this happened at SILs school. She was also upset to miss her breaks and getting into trouble when she had done nothing wrong. He made such a good case they admitted it was wrong, pointless and punishing good behaviour for the majority of the class and changed the entire school policy on it for all years.

Complain until they change something, its a completely unfair punishment.

If they know who the culprits are then I can't see the need for a whole class punishment. In my day (many many years ago) it was only used when the teacher had no clue who had done whatever had annoyed the teacher.

As a one off okay, any more then it is not acceptable. What message does it send to the well-behaved children who get included in the detention. Imo it would actually encourage bad behaviour in more children than improving the behaviour of the few. I would talk to head of year.

ok, you can't really go & just collect child, the school has the legal right to detain children for up to one hour after school, if you are given 24 hours written notice.

However, i would write a very firm letter, pointing out that your ds is not involved, is missing clubs (which is bad for the clubs) & that it isn't working so should be stopped.

I have never worked in a school where whole class detention was accepted. I would make the whole class sit quietly, after the bell had gone (they can be kept in for 10 mins without warning) then let them go in order of who worked hardest, so the hard workers went immediately, the naughty kids were left to sweat it out in an ever diminishing group.

if you've already approached the teacher, then go to the next link up the chain, head of subject/year etc. the teacher clearly needs some support with thos e kids.

I doubt this is policy - the teacher is not managing. As there are so many, I would say something. As a rule, whole-class detentions do not work, and I'm sure will not be advocated by the school as a regular event (if at all).

It needs to stop from the teacher's point of view too, as it will breed a gang mentality against him / her and certainly not help class management in the long term.

I do have some sympathy as it can be VERY difficult to identify the (say 15 - 20) pupils who are misbehaving / persistently talking or whatever, when you are inexperienced (and therefore facing more challenges to authority). Punishing the whole class can seem like an option / a threat that might work (but which then has to be carried out) but it really doesn't work. I used to train new teachers, and this kind of thing when they were struggling was one of the areas in which they always needed support.

Slug, how do we know that the OPs ds is pandering to the bad behaviour? Or that his opinion has any influence over the class? Doesn't that rather depend on his place in the hierarchy?

I didn't like it when my peers were playing up at school and never pretended I did, but because I had already been written off as a stupid swot, that didn't exactly act as a deterrent, rather the opposite. So it would have been rather unfair to regard me as an enabler.

The class as a whole might have some power. One individual may or may not.

YANBU. Poor lad

However I suspect the teacher is at the end of her rope And needs more support. A letter to the head might help her/him too.

I think YABU and YANBU.

As part of my teacher training, it was always imposed on us that class detentions are unfair and not to be used unless it genuinely is the whole class contributing to the problem. I have never issued whole class detentions and it does sound like the teacher has got a problem here. If it was happening regularly to my child, I would be upset about it too and would probably want action. I would think an appointment to see the head of deaprtment or year (whoever is appropriate in your child's school might be in order).

However, I do think that yabu in just refusing to let your child do the DT (without approaching the school). in doing this, you are only further undermining the teacher's authority (and it sounds like he/she has got authority issues as it is) and could actually make the situation worse.

Surely the bigger problem here is the behaviour of the students in class (that is after all what is causing the detentions) and that is what needs dealing with. I don't think you are wrong to want to address these issues (I agree that the teacher is wrong to be setting these detentions), I just think there are better ways about going about it, rather than potentially causing your child and the teacher more problems (the teacher will lose face over kids not turning up to detention - which if he has got authority issues, he will have to deal with, and so may well then punish your child for not turning up to detention).

Far better to work with the school than against it imho.

Cory, it's a difficult technique to use and you have to be very experienced at reading class dynamics to get it right. However, teachers and schools spend a lot of time working on class groups to get the dynamics right. A class with an alpha group who want to learn are a joy to teach, a class with an alpha group who are disruptive are a nightmare. The same student can behave well in one group and appalingly in another, depending on what the dynamics are. As much as we would like to, the teaching staff have no say over who is the alpha student in a group. It the group themselves who decide. individual students don't decide, but if most of the individuals decide that they would rather be working than in detention, then the attitute to the disrupters will change to the extent that they no longer gain any power from playing up.

I totally sympathise with the OP. I don't think she is being unreasonable. But I do know, based on a long career in teaching, that her son has some power, however much he may not realise it, to effect some change within the class. At what point do we start teaching our children about the social contract? Do we let them think that those who shout loudest get the most attention? Or do we teach our children that they are powerless to change things, that standing by and watching bad behaviour is the way to go because "It wasn't me"?

These disrupters are effectively bullies. They are forcing the rest of the class to accept a disruptive classroom regardless of how the rest of the class may feel. Bullies thrive on approval. The class are giving them approval, therefore the behaviour continues. What the teacher is trying to do, wrongly in my opinion, is to force the hand of the OP's son and the others in his class to face up to the bullies.

Slug, I fully understand about the social contract. But you seem to be saying that because the whole class is not standing up to the bullies, this proves that the OP's son is not standing up to the bullies, because if he did he would be able to change the attitude of the rest of the class. This seems to me a non sequitur.

The truth is that we know nothing of how the OP's son reacts to the bullies.

I spent a lot of my school career standing up to people who did not share my views. I am still happy that I did it, because it was right. But I cannot recall a single instance where it actually did change the way other people viewed things; I was far too low down the hierarchy and I was alone. So you would not have been able to draw any conclusions about my behaviour from the behaviour of the alpha students.

I think it's lazy for a teacher to exert pressure on other children to solve the discipline problems in the class by imposing collective punishments. It's not far off the "daddy" system in prison.

If the teacher can't control the class without punishing innocent pupils - and it isn't working anyway! - then she needs retraining/replacing IMO

YANBU OP, just put your foot down and pick him up on time every day. You don't have to tolerate this poor practice and neither does your son.

Greensneeze, you have harsh opinions - perhaps you should try controlling and teaching a group of teenagers?

My DD is at primary school and last year (p6) the new teacher was doing this. The class were missing break and PE, because of the behaviour of 3 boys. I went in and pointed out that these boys weren't feeling guilty that everyone was being punished, they couldn't have cared less. I told her I wasn't happy that DD was being punished for being good. I wasn't the only parent to complain and it stopped.