to be bl**dy furious that my DD has measles because other parents won't vaccinate?

[elportodelgato]

poor DD is only 11 mo and has horrid measles all over her, full of cold, streaming eyes, diarrhea, very unhappy and sleepy and limp. I am so so for her, but more I am absolutely bloody with idiot parents who won't have the MMR!

The doctor actually told me this morning that the reason it is so prevalent in our area is because of stupid people refusing to vaccinate their children and compromising the immunity of the whole group. So now my LO, who is only 2 months off having the vaccination herself, is really really sick because of other people's stupidity. It's making my blood boil! Do people not realise how dangerous it can be in little babies? And does anyone still seriously believe the so called "research" which claimed a link between MMR and autism? It has been so completely discredited in recent years you would think people would have got over it by now and started vaccinating again

Arrgh!!

I cared for a teeanage girl who have brain damage casued by measles related meningitis. Not nice, every bit as bad as ASD IMVHO.

Not anything other than an anecdote to counter those who have no doubt tsaid that they don't know anyone who has had lasting problmes with measles.

Saintly at baby videos. I recently threw out a whole load of baby photos we had of DD1 when she was at her sickest, I was shocked to see the state of her as I hadn't looked at them in a long time. We are lucky because the things we have done for her have helped her and she is doing OK at the moment.

Ah yes silverfrog the ridiculous "coincidence" argument generally raises an immediate red flag of ignorance, misinformation and wishful thinking.

Kewcumber poor child. I always find it very strange that people will happily accept that measles and so on can cause brain, and other types of damage but that the viruses used in vaccines cannot, ever.

(Not suggesting you are one of these people BTW as I don't know your views)

I think one thing you learn when your child attends an SLD/PMLD school is that shit happens. To lots of people. Like riven I know children damaged by naturally acquired infections and vaccinations. The end result is pretty indistinguishable.

It's always the parents who are blamed for not taking up these vaccines. In my opinion one of the major factors in many areas clinics is that have stopped sending out reminders to parents for shots. It's all very hit and miss - at our surgery, we get some reminders, others not. I'm on top of it because maybe it's important to me, I make time for it, etc. But it is easy to see how a parent might get caught up in the day to day and realise they'd missed it. If you on no two, three, etc you aren't going to baby groups anymore where first time around shots are hot topics.

I'm willing to bet this is a much bigger factor than any research.

sorry: ....is that clinics have stopped...

brain not working this morning.

i have no idea yet what I will do about MMR, but as I posted before, my GP baby clinic (in SE London) is offering single vaccines for measles at 12 months, so the NHS must be sufficiently concerned about outbreaks to go ahead and fund single vaccines.

In our area if they just got their act together, sent proper reminders, and offered the shots more frequently than one four hour session once a week, that would improve uptake dramatically I reckon.

Completely agree, children die all over the wold from these infectious diseases, and the link with Autism is totally unfounded and has been discredited by scientists. Keeping these diseases at bay is dependent on herd immunity and relies on a large fraction of the population using the vaccines. Where I live in France children are not accepted into creches, schools etc if they don't have these vaccines like MMR or BCG.

point taken Riven - but i was only responding to someone who said they didn;t know anyone who'd been damaged by measles some way down the thread. I do.

I am pro vaccination my aunt suffered from teh effects of Polio all her life and was one of the few children in her street who had it to survive but I don't have a problme with those whose children have known risk factors taking a decision to avoid specific vaccines.

I have less truck with those who have no reason for avoiding vaccines, who do no research, just allow themselves to be carried along on a wave.

And if there were a vaccination against car accidents I'd let DS have that too.

DD2 had MMR and Measles which left her hearing damaged. What would have happened to her without it?

If a child cannot have the vaccine, the rest of the population having vaccinations (incl single jabs) would protect that child as there would be less incidents.

You know I'm also pro-vaccination, in the main.

Hut I firmly beleive that in our situation- with the very real risks we face with ds4- most people wold change their minds.Not all, but most.

And usually when we 'do' this thread people come along and say wel;l, actually in your case Peachy....'

Well my case is what I live with, the decisions I have to make, people talk about society- who do you think pays for the educational stuff my boys need? All of them sone degree or another get extra help, either through a sahred one to one on SA+ for ds2, 1-1 for ds1 or extremely expensive SNU place for ds3. I can't work, so get carers and two of the boys get DLA, and we get support from Paeds, Psych, Dietetics, SALT....

The cost is immense and very real. A definite plus to soceity if tehy don't need it I would think. I'd quite like ds4 to attend a school and remain entirely within MS, to learn within the 'top' 90% (something none of mine have managed, though Is eriosuly doubt that finding for ds2). To have friends around, to be able to play or ask for a drink in general language (DS3 says I hot to indicate he needs a drink).

And the benefits t society of that will be pretty real in themselves.

Hi there - I take the point that I've not been back to check on the (truly incredible) number of responses to my OP, and sorry again for re-launching this old argument... I've been nursing a very sick and unhappy baby - I do think she is on the mend but it's going to be a long process. Thanks to everyone who has wished her better.

OK, so having read (most) of this last night I do accept:

1. some people (I am guessing a very small percentage, probably over-represented on mn) do have genuine medical reasons for either not vaccinating at all, or for being offered individual vaccines for their children. I mean people who have received medical advice that they should not, not people who just have a bad feeling about it.

2. I am very sorry for those of you who feel that the MMR has had an adverse affect on your DCs. Obviously nothing I say could dissaude you from making the link between the two. It is too emotive an issue and obviously very hard to be discussed objectively because of that. I accept that I have been very emotive here as well for exactly the same reason - my baby is sick and I am angry.

3. I still maintain that the vast vast majority of the population have no real reason for not having the vaccination.

4. Don't belittle it, measles is a serious illness - my doctor was legally obliged yesterday to contact the board of public health and notify them of my DD's infection. So no, I am not happy that my DD has got it, and will therefore be immune, I am angry that she got it when it should be all but eliminated in a developed country.

5. Most people who have not vaccinated have done so on the basis of something they saw fleetingly in the press, not on the basis of any medical advice. No one is going to come on mn and admit they didn't vaccinate because they read something somewhere in the Daily Mail a few years back, so obviously these people are not really represented in this debate, but they are definitely out there, in significant numbers.

6. I am fairly annoyed with one of the underlying assumptions from some non-vaccinators - which is basically: we need 95% coverage to ensure herd immunity, therefore I will let everyone else vaccinate their children and I will choose to be in the 5% not vaccinated. ie: let everyone else take the responsibility for the whole group while I opt out of doing the right thing yet still reap the benefits of herd immunity.

7. There is a big big difference between anecdotal evidence (which is mainly what is supplied on mn) and rigorous scientific research into causal relationships. The scientific community is not out there to con the general population or to be the bad guy in conspiracy theories - scientific studies set out to prove or disprove hypotheses based on evidence.

8. Andrew Wakefield's research has been widely discredited. This is a fact. I was going to hunt down all the evidence about this, but as I said, I have a sick baby here taking up most of my day, and actually it turns out the BBC have done a handy timeline of the issue which basically covers all of it - please do have a look, it namechecks all the relevant research, including some really huge studies conducted over many many years which you can follow up and read properly if you have the time:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1808956.stm

7. I know lots of people here have asked to see hard evidence proving there is no link, so if the BBC info above does not satisfy and you genuinely want me to find published peer-reviewed scientific papers, then I am happy to provide details of all the studies into the issue - my husband works vaguely in this field so finding them will not be a problem.

Sorry this has been such an angry debate and also such a groundhog day for most people

PS: sorry, clearly got v confused with my numbering on the previous post!

None of those studies test Wakefield's hypothesis which is that a small subgroup were affected. Once study has attempted to look at a subgroup, but then completely misidentified it based on assumptions about symptoms Wakefield's subgroup showed (they didn't show the symptoms chosen) so Wakefield's hypothesis remains untested.

Take for example the Feb 2002 study mentioned on the BBC- I assume they mean Taylor et al. They say in their conclusions to that paper that their results do not rule out that some children may have a rare idiosyncratic response to the MMR. That IS Wakefield's hypothesis! So the authors themselves have stated in the published paper that they didn't test it.

Every single study on that list has various reasons why it does not address Wakefield's hypothesis.

I had to have MY polio shot at the same time as DS1 and still ware gloves to change his nappy's as my mother never had us jabbed for that either.
Both my sons had whooping cough and the Dr refused to believe it was whooping cough at first as he was so sure these illnesses had died out.

To each person it is about personal choice, my mother chose not to have us vaccinated and I remember how ill I was with each thing, I know I almost died with measles, so I chose to spare my children going through such illnesses.

DS1 and DS2 both had all jabs, but it is a case of damed if you do damed if you don't if you jab your child then find out they have a problem you will blame yourself for having the jabs as it could have caused it and if you do not jab your child, they get ill and end up with lasting damage you blame yourself for not jabbing the child. As a parent you can never win

As stated before I am Pro - MMR but strongly pro-choice too.

Are there any studies done to ascertain if any children developing normally went on to develop regression who had not received the MMR (or even no vaccines at all) ?

Is there anything else that potentially could be causing this type of autism such as the use of ibuprofen after vaccination? Or does this regression occur when the child approaches the age where they psychlogically recognise themselves to be an independant being, for example they can identify that their reflection in a mirror is them and not any other child?

I apologise if this question causes upset particularly if you feel the MMR is to blame. Unfortunately no vaccine is 100% safe.

There is some information here on regressive autism:

link

saintly, I quote:

"Take for example the Feb 2002 study mentioned on the BBC- I assume they mean Taylor et al. They say in their conclusions to that paper that their results do not rule out that some children may have a rare idiosyncratic response to the MMR. That IS Wakefield's hypothesis! So the authors themselves have stated in the published paper that they didn't test it."

So the point here is that the Taylor et al study does not rule out that a small sub-group of children may have a rare idiosyncratic response to the MMR. While I do have every sympathy for people whose children may fall within this group, the findings of the research show that the group is so small as to be statistically insignificant.

I am absolutely NOT belittling the experiences of these children and parents but pointing out that even if it is true, it is so small as to be irrelevant in terms of the big picture.

Contrast these (disputed, possible, not yet proven on any scale) effects with the known impact of NOT vaccinating (deaths, deafness, pneumonia, lifelong illnesses) and I know which I would prefer.

There are lots of things that could be triggering regression (and probably lots of things that are triggering regression). One payout has been for MMR triggering regression in the case of a mild mitochondrial dysfunction. if you have a mitochondrial dysfunction then there may well be many environmental factors that could trigger a regression.

In ds1's case his regression following the viral infection followed a whole series of other events beforehand. These could have contributed - maybe the virus itself was not enough. Add in his young age - and he was vulnerable. Had he met that virus at 5 probably nothing would have happened.

My son has always been able to identify himself in mirrors etc. He understands teasing etc. In his case the regression halted or wiped out language development (he understands nouns, not much else), speech (lost all the words he had), motor skills (lost the ability to make consonant sounds, which he had been doing before), and introduced these weird spasms that he has.