to think that snobbery about others is only depriving yourself

[OrmIrian]

of the company of people who might turn out to be amazingly good friends.

Yes it is a thread about a thread. Sorry. But it's a serious point.

If you judge and dismiss people on the basis of what they put on their walls or where they live, doesn't that reduce the pool of potential friends and acquaintances, and experiences. And if you judge but don't speak or act on your judgements, or let them colour your actions, don't you eventually learn just how pointless such judgements actually are?

Just wondering. As I get older I get less judgemental, not more and I think my life is richer for it.

TBH the people who really care about things like napkins and toilets and actually think they matter, are usually riven with insecurity themselves and in a constant state of terror that they might be doing something "wrong".

To decide when you meet people whether they are "above" or "below" you, which is effectively what is going on, must an all consuming activity.

hyacinth bucket, anyone?

Totally agree@Orm.

I was brought up to mix with all sorts and am encouraging my kids to do the same.

I judge friendship potential based on factors completely unrelated to class/wealth/social standing etc. I like easygoing, friendly, funny people of all backgrounds and persuasions . Uptight snot-noses need not apply

I think the other thread just shows us all that whatever you do some idiot will judge you for it. Therefore do what you want and let them get on with it

FWIW I have plastic windows, live in an unfashionable area and am currently wearing, gasp 3 quarter length jeans from NEXT

I don't think that caring about the "right way" to do things is necessarily a symptom of insecurity. My grandparents were like this, very formal, and very particular about manners. They were upper middle class and a little rigid. But it was nothing to do with how other people might see them (to be honest I'm not sure they were that aware that other people might do things differently). Just a like for things to be just so, and an assumption that that was the right and proper way.

As children we thought it was hilarious - eating fruit with a knife and fork, always having meals at set times, and in a set routine (cooked breakfast at 8, bread and cheese at 1, tea at four, with bread and butter before cake, supper at 8 etc etc). My mother found it very annoying when they came to stay, as they assumed that it was how it would be at our house, and it was a lot more effort.

My dh comes from a very working class background, and his family also have their own rituals and routines, and would laugh about my family. It's all tribalism really.

MIL used to yearn for grape scissors

Made I laff that did

My parents have grape scissors - very handy too if you like that sort of thing! In silver naturally

nooka I think that having to look down on other people, and being acutely aware of your own place, as some people are, is a sign of insecurity.

Having your own way of doing things isn't, obviously. And going along with other people's ways when in their home is simple courtesy.

junglist1, these mums who won't talk to each other because of being working class or middle class, or appearance based - just a friendly smile or as you say a cheery hello would make all this stuff unnecessary!

Seems really daft in this day and age what class you belong to makes any difference to whether you talk to someone or not. Quite agree this is missing out on knowing some interesting and nice people.

You people make me laugh. Plastic windows keep you warm and keep your bills down. Why be freezing and skint just to live to someone else's standards or because someone who doesn't pay your bills finds them 'common'?

I have always merrily pulled grapes off the stalks.

Was surprised when a friend said she was looking for scissors to cut the grapes. Is this the correct thing to do?

Agree with you on the windows, expat . It's a British thing, though, living with creaking old furniture in creaking old houses that cost a bomb to maintain and still aren't comfortable...

I really hate snobbishness, and find it an extremely useful indication of whether or not someone is worth getting to know.

My parents and step-parents are all tremendous snobs in different ways, they taught me a lot about how I didn't want to live!

But there again, perhaps I am limiting my opportunities for making friends by excluding the snobbish and shallow...

I suppose it must be a British thing, Bonsoir, because it strikes me as foolish to be cold and uncomfortable and basically burn money for no good reason at all.

I suppose it must be a cosmetic thing, the appearance of plastic windows being less preferable to some, but wearing a bunch of bulky jumpers and having blue skin is unattractive.

I suppose it must be a British thing, Bonsoir, because it strikes me as foolish to be cold and uncomfortable and basically burn money for no good reason at all.

I suppose it must be a cosmetic thing, the appearance of plastic windows being less preferable to some, but wearing a bunch of bulky jumpers and having blue skin is unattractive.

I think the problem with plastic windows is more environmental. They don't last as long as wood (unless you get very high quality ones) and every time some one puts in a new set of windows more windows are ending up in landfill.

Some plastic windows are ok (ours ). Others have very chunky unattractive frames and some of the plastic doors with rose patterns on look very twee.

I couldn't agree more expat.

We could debate the environmental thing I suspect. Plastic windows that keep the heat in are better than bad wooden ones.

In my experience those who champion the 'environmental' benefits of wood seem less bothered about waste when they replace their kitchen every 5 years.

Snap, brett. I would think that old wooden windows would be even worse for keeping a place warm and are basically akin to burning away even more fuel for a minimum of warmth, or having to use heat more frequently.

I doubt the glass from plastic windows is winding up in a landfill. The frames might, but that glass is too valuable to be just thrown out.

We live in a Victorian with old sash windows and secondary glazing and it's often miserably cold in here (it's a rented house, though).

Can someone please explain grape scissors. Are they for cutting the stalks?

Also I thought the correct name for a paper napkin WAS a serviette. A material napkin is a napkin obviously.

My parents live in a Queen Anne house with original sash windows, a fair few of which have handblown glass in them still. They look lovely (esp. the blown ones, as they reflect light in a very different way due to the imperfections), and as the house is listed have to remain. My parents used to get calls from double glazing salesmen on a regular basis, and boy did they get an earful (I bet they though she was extremely snobby, as she gets quite patrician when she is angry). Our house as we grew up was rattly and droughty, and sometimes quite cold (I have a lifelong attachment to thermal vests as a result), but is living in a airfree box that much better for you? It's only an issue for the environment if you actually turn the heating on isn't it

I thought they were napkins no matter if they are cloth or paper.

Grape scissors are designed to that they hold the grapes that you have cut, so that you can bring them over to your plate without touching them. They are quite neat for that No other function though, so somewhat ostentatious (like special cheese or butter knives really). The advantage to using scissors at all is that you don't leave the bits of grape on the main stem, which looks nasty and can also go moldy (should you live in a household where your grapes last more than a few days). It might be worth remembering that they were probably invented for a world in which grapes were a luxury.

And you are right technically, cloth napkins, paper serviettes (and that's why they are so lower class because the upper class would obviously have freshly laundered and starched linen (even embroidered) napkins in silver napkin holders). I was writing that with tongue in cheek until I remembered that my grandparents did indeed have monogrammed napkins!