to be irritated by "real women"

[MoreLikeMiranda]

Sneering that the likes of Angelina Jolie, Megan Fox, Claudia Schiffer or any successful, rich and beautiful woman isn't a real woman.

FFS, they are not robots or plastic.. they are extraordinary women... hurrah for them!

hmmm...what is a real woman anyway...surely entirely subjective anyhow....

But I agree, of course unless someone had a lot of of plastic surgery, I would say they are real....
I suppose "stars" have a different drive...different needs to satisfy, etc...but they are real...

Watched a programme on Biography channel ( I think it was) about Britney, and it made me feel really sad for her...whilst I realised about Paparazzi issues, I had no idea about the entent of paparazzi she (and surely otehrs, too) have following them....terrible....it's no surprise so many stars become so unhinged....

Sorry, Annie (that'll teach me) - was just being flippant.

Hmm. I'm not obsessed about how I look AND I'm not curvy. I am just the shape I am, which is pretty skinny on top, very small in the breast department, with a bigger or smaller bum depending on how fit I am. I've been the same shape pretty much since I was a teenager. I don't have any weighing scales, rarely look in a mirror, and eat when I am hungry. But I am not and never will be curvy.

I am quite happy with the Dove type of definition of real women (ie a range of normal shapes, sizes and colours) but it would be a better description if they said normal women rather than real ones. Having said that most faces (and probably bodies too) used in beauty ads are quite clearly manipulated. Luckily for me, I am quite happy with my face, wrinkles and all, so I don't use any beauty products, which in turn I suspect keeps my face much healthier in any case. I don't wish to look as if I had never had a thought or emotion in my life, so long as the laugh lines dominate the frown ones, I'm happy!

I'm sure most people have seen this before, but it is a good example of the "unreality" of media (mediated?) beauty, so maybe the Dove definition of "real" is appropriate to an extent nooka, though I do see what you mean.

Habbibu - sorry, yes, I did get that you were being flippant! Was trying to be flipant-ish back but I'm not very good at it.

Oh, no - shame belongs to me, getting all cocky with my google-acquired knowledge. (well, a teeny bit from a 20 year old A level qual, if that drags me back any shred of authority. No? Thought not.)

Who knew you'd be a geneticist?!! Pah - the diversity of MN can be so humbling...

A mans point of view. Abetadad...what is a real woman to you?

Chellesgirl - an interesting question.

Well, it does not have a lot to do with body shape and thats for sure.

A real woman for me is psychologically strong, courageous in making her own choices, has her own opinion without needing anyone else to validate it, happy to be a woman, does not take any nonsense from blokes and does not have any other expectation than to be treated fairly and equally.

Some actresses I think of as real women:

Dawn French, Helen Mirren, Julie Walters.

These are women who I think are actually very 'attractive' in the widest sense and all who have successful careers in their own right. Sadly, there are not many 'real women' business leaders or politicians at the moment who I can immediately think of as beacon to other women. There must be some - I just can't think of good examples off the top of my head. Almost all sports women almost always impress me though as 'real women'.

Perhaps this is a bit of a personal preference but for me I find 'real women' who are intelligent, who take a pride in their appearance without being glamour models, with a great sense of humour, who challenge me are intellectually are what I like best.

I wonder if the reason I cannot think of any 'real women' in business and politics is because the men in those fields often cannot handle being challenged by a 'real woman' so they make sure they get weeded out when they are still fairly junior?

Perhaps 'real women' find it easier to come to the fore in arts and sport because it is much more of an individual thing rather than depending on climbing a corporate or political promotion leader where men can call the shots.

I certainly know a lot of men who cannot handle being challenged by a 'real woman'. My wife has met a fair few as well.

Can you explain more clearly what you mean by psychologically strong abetadad. I've just read this post:
'A woman who is obsessed with body size to the point that she is constantly having plastic surgery or dieting to within an inch of her life (or chronically overeating) surely cannot by definition be psychologically strong.'
I don't think that having plastic surgery is comparable with an eating disorder. An eating disorder (I am no expert) I think is often a result of stress/OCD/mental illness, conditions which anyone can be a victim of.

I know lots of nice women over 20 years in the City but they tend in general not to have that high a profile and nor do most of the men they work with. Those at the top of companies - there's a female hedge fund owner/manager; there's the lady who runs the FT; there's Clara Furse (London Stock exchange etc); Nicola Horlick is sexy, pretty, clever, nice, successful and has 5 children (had 6 children before sadly one died). In politics we had Lady Thatcher who apparently had quite a bit of sexual magnetism as well as having two children, being our first prime minister with a science degree etc.. I was always a fan. There are a lot of real women among current prospective Tory candidates.

It's a fairly pointless phrase though - real woman unless you're talking about people with equivocal genders, born with penis and vagina and that kind of thing and many people are between two genders, a much more interesting topic.

Do you mean over 20 years old or 20 years in the City?

I blame Gok Wan

that Xenia is a Thatcher fan
Well I never

Well, real human beings are a variety of shapes and sizes, and one of the things some human beings do, or like to do, or feel driven to do, is alter their shape/size/appearance. It doesn't make them unreal - ie they are still human beings..
Now I thiought this was going to be a cisgender discussion, which would have been far more interesting.

cornsilk - I am not talking about people with eating disorders, which obviously can strike anyone and is a medical condition, or someone who has a plastic surgery operation to say repair a broken nose - again a medical condition.

Xenia - I agree that Margaret Thatcher was a real woman too.

I agree with all the rest you say as well about women in the City and top jobs. I wish it were different and am sure we would not have had the credit crunch and chaos in financial markets if more women had been in charge.

I meant knowing mothers who work in the City of London who I have known for over 20 years (as I'm in my 40s).

As sgsb said most people do do things to their appareance, whether that's smear themselves with woad or ochre or make up or put on a pretty dress or good suit. It's how human beings are made, how they attract the opposite species, how the human race continues. Some things are going too far - in my view that including dieting so you don't have periods any more, foot binding in old China, having your breasts hacked around with and nipples resited (see Ulrika Johnnson's latest..) but everyone draws their own lines at how far they will go. I prefer to wear high heels which is somewhere on this spectrum too.

Abetadad - you posted:
'A woman who is obsessed with body size to the point that she is constantly having plastic surgery or dieting to within an inch of her life (or chronically overeating) surely cannot by definition be psychologically strong.'
Someone who diets to 'within an inch of her life' or 'chronically' overeats surely has an eating disorder?

cornsilk - I am not going to have an arguement. You know what I meant.

Really?

Actually I don't know what you meant by 'psychologically strong' which is why I asked you to explain what you meant at 09:11:47.

Well it's nice to be strong/feisty/happy in your own skin, and certainly what I would like for my daughter, but that may not be her personality. If she turns out to be shy and retiring does that mean she won't be real any more?

I do think this is a bit of a silly conversation. Abetadad appears to me to be talking about women that he admires - or their characteristics anyway. Nothing wrong with that, and I would agree that these are good qualities in a woman or a man but nothing to do with "reality".

Women's characters come in all shapes and sizes too.

Xenia- "attract the opposite species", really?

Thanks for your answer to my question abetadad. It seems that the this topic is widely contraversial and that all men will have many different types of opinion - yours i like but its very hard to come by a man that doesnt mind surrendering control (unless in the bedroom ;) )

Us women will never be able to figure out whats real or perfect as thier are so many variaions of women in this world. We need to look at ourselves as individuals and not a group, which some young girls and ladies tend to follow.

I am not the woman you describe abetadad though i wish i could be. I wish alot of men could have your opinion.