To think it's depressing that everyone seems to think after this recession we should just return to exactly how things were?

[kake]

Does anyone else get this sense? What I mean is that everybody is lamenting this recession, quite rightly as it's awful, and I feel for everyone who has lost their job or is struggling.

But on the other hand there doesn't seem to be an acceptance that in some ways this has been at least a little bit caused by complete over-consumption in the good times and that we need to change our ways a little bit. Or a lot. When people talk about house prices especially, the consensus always seems to be that if there's any talk about a recovery that must be a positive thing, with the implication that we should be getting back to stupidly inflated house prices as soon as possible.

I find it depressing, as someone who didn't buy partly because we couldn't really afford it but also because we were really cautious and didn't want to overstretch ourselves. But now we're seeing a lot of friends who did somehow being rewarded as their mortgages have been slashed.

I'm also someone who wishes that taxes had been much higher for what I consider to be well paid people (and that would include my DH!) during the boom, so that there hadn't been such a disparity in income in this country then. It's a shame that higher tax levels in future will have to pay off debt not contribute to the national benefit! If I mention this to (well paid) friends they look at me as if I'm mad, although they are people who in principle I think sort of do believe in equality, just not if it affects their/our pockets. My view is that as satisfaction with income is largely relative (ie it matters more to people apparently that they get paid more than their neighbour than their absolute wealth), then if everybody is taxed more at higher income levels, then we'd all be in the same boat and it wouldn't make much difference.

But I feel like I'm STILL swimming against the tide, just when I would have thought more people would begin to feel like this. We have lots of friends who work in the banking sector for example who've been through a bit of a rocky time but now seem to be out the other side and better off than ever and sort of with no lessons learned!

It just seems ... so wrong! Or maybe I just got out of bed on the wrong side. And this post isn't as articulate as I would have hoped!

kake, if I think about this too much i start getting depressed too. Unfortunately I don't think anything will change until the damage and exploitation of our planet starts impacting the people at the top in government and business. I think when the western world in particular start experiencing food shortages, water shortages, power cuts etc, ie when things have got REALLY REALLY bad (which may not be in our lifetime but our children's or grandchildren's), ONLY then will governments start actually making real changes to the way society's live.

ie only when our backs are well and truly up against the wall, when we are eyeball to eyeball with the destruction we are ravaging on the planet will anything of significance be done by those in power.

Kake, I'm sure you would run a very BENIGN dictatorship!

Yes agree oneplusone. It's terribly sad. And becstar, that's exactly our position. I guess there is an element of envy and bitterness, and that is why it's so difficult to talk about it in RL as it can just sound like sour grapes. At the moment DH and I COULD buy a house but I've realised that part of the reason I don't want to is a sort of a principled objection to the whole thing. That's actually a bit crazy now I think about it.

The other thing is, and this is going to sound a bit snobbish maybe, is that I've come to a lot of these conclusions as I've got a bit older by reading around the subject and seeing what I think are quite clear links between all these areas (environmentalism, less wealth, better redistribution, more co-operation, and HAPPINESS) but unfortunately I don't think most people have the time and inclination to do this.

Not even my DH who I try to educate (in a nice way) but he is all about maximising the income for his family and DEFINITELY NOT paying more tax. He's a lovely person though, much nicer than me. He does charitable work and gives up his time and I'm a grump who sits at my computer ranting about the world!

Becstarlitsea, we are also losing money on our savings (our only security) and feel very resentful that we are being penalised for being prudent during the boom years.

I know it's unfair to feel this way, and apologies in advance to to anyone who is struggling to pay a mortgage but it drives me mad that there is so much focus by the Government on helping existing home owners and "re-stabilising" (i.e. re-inflating) the property market.

Thanks MrsFlittersnoop, much appreciated. Although see previous point re: grump at computer. And during recent news coverage about local councils using inappropriate surveillance techniques I have thought to myself that using said techniques against people whose dogs poo on the pavement is ... entirely acceptable. But I wouldn't send them to a gulag or anything like that! Definitely not!

Kake, thats not crazy at all. I understand exactly where you're coming from.

The property ownership fetish is a very Brit phenomenon, My Canadian cousins didn't buy until they were in their 50s. It is entirely normal in many other countries to rent for most of your working life, save and invest your money, and then purchase a property for your retirement.

hear hear ... up the revolution...I'm voting Kake (or can I not vote if it is going to be a benign dictatorship...hmm)

am with you all - just back from Eire where the bust is even worse than here, or seems to be, it's certainly all anyone is talking about there. I guess they are feeling it worse because the celtic tiger was so strong the last ten years or so and this was so unusual for Ireland. I used to visit regularly and wonder why everyone was so avidly, crazily consuming...could they not see that a bust just had to come...

scary stuff - totally agree we need to downsize material expectation and desire

A Dictatorship of Grumpy Old Women! That's what this country needs!

We need a GOW fixed-penalty system of Gulag-worthiness.

Dog Poo - 1 year. Feet on seats in buses - 2 years. Tourists blocking the escalator at Camden Town tube station - 5 years. Size 6 shop assistants with orange fake tan ignoring one's plaintive requests for a larger size garment to be brought to one's changing cubicle - 10 YEARS!

Agree kake. Especially re housing market. Stupid money.

YANBU!

Great news about the dictatorship. But I have to break the news that I don't think I should be in charge. All this YANBU stuff is going to my head and I can feel myself getting slightly power-crazed already!! Going to make a cup of tea to bring myself down.

YANBU! People need to change their ways permanently to be more eco friendly so that the planet is preserved for our children and grand children.

Flying should be a luxury not the norm for holidays. We should have another golden age of rail travel...at cheaper prices..not the rip off fares we have at the moment which make it cheaper to get to places by car.

Things like TVs and electrical goods, mobile phones should be made to last so that they are not continually being disposed of.

The government should not prop up the housing market.

It seems that people are being helped out more if they have lived beyond their means (v. high mortgage) than if they have been cautious and saved money (loss of interest on savings)

I could go on !

Gordon and Alistair have one main thing in mind when considering their econonmic policies.. the next election in May/June 2010. I personally think things are going to get ALOT worse in 2010/2011 whomever wins. (I will be voting labour BTW)Interest rates are going to shoot up, unemployment will be 3mil plus and taxes are also going to have to rise. I think the majority of the public have been protected from the worse of this recession by the low interest rates..(not including those who ahve lost jobs/ in negative equity) our family are BETTER off now than we were 12 months ago.. this does not make sense to me when I read the papers as my dp is in the building trade BUT as soon as the election result is announced in another 12 months , I think life is going to be alot harder for alot of people (including us) and I am personally overpaying mortgage/ budgeting etc for this now. I read alot of the financial press which often gives me a real sense of impending doom (note - i am a layman and don't understand it all) and it doesn't seem to equate to what I see on the streets where I live and the finances of my friends where it does seem business as usual. I suspect reality is yet to bite for a lot of people.

Gosh, I wish I knew you guys in RL. Can't talk about this stuff with anyone.

I feel the same way. I CANNOT BELIEVE that after years of house price boom and being derided by friends and family as loonies for not taking part, that NOW those same people have replaced telling me endlessly about the value of their houses and now they all tell me how much they are paying for their mortgages each month. Breathhhhh... One person is paying below £50 per month, for over £200k. I feel like screaming. When is it going to be my turn? When are things going to go my way?

People just seem to be getting by by the skin of their teeth, but get by they do. I could scream. It's the smugness I can't bear. Oh, God I need a G&T.

Shall we keep this as a support thread.

As a family, we will benefit a great deal from plummeting house prices and sky-high interest rates. Our savings will rapidly increase and we should be able to afford to buy a house if prices drop another 20% over the next couple of years.

Should my tactical voting strategy at the next election be to support the party with the most useless fiscal policies?

Mrs Flitter, I have to disagree! We are not grumpy old women, we seem to be the only one's who can see the wood for the trees!

I agree with the poster who said after the election things are going to get a LOT tougher for everyone and DH and I are also trying to plan our finances accordingly. But so much of it is out of our control unfortunately.

Is there time to get a campaign for "Kake for Prime Minister" going before the next election?

This government has sent the resounding message that saving isn't worth your time.

They've forced a lot of elderly people to live in near penury so as to prop up mortgage-holders.

A stupid move when you consider the number of over 55s who vote.

Yes, support thread, brilliant! Then I'll never get any work done but never mind. It's so funny how many people are saying on here that they don't get to talk about this in RL. I have lots of lovely friends who on the whole I have good discussions with but on this issue I seem to be coming at life from a completely different angle to them so to be honest I avoid the subject mainly. I guess partly as we are one of the only non-house owner couples I know so that sets us apart.

Interesting what you say Molly re: things getting worse, as I think everyone just seems to want to believe in the green shoots and then suddenly miraculously all will be OK. Maybe it will and I don't want it to get worse for people. But I agree, there's only one way for interest rates to go, and that's up. So all the people jumping into the housing market now, with big mortgages but low rates, aren't they going to be in trouble potentially once their fixed rates come to an end, which they must do eventually?

OK. we currently pay £1400 per month rent. Can anyone give me a rough estimate how big a mortgage we could get for the above monthly repayment figure? As far as I can discover, no-one is willing to lend us a penny right now because we are self-employed. But we were told 3 years ago we could have borrowed £300k on a self-cert mortgage based on DH's earnings.

Thank God we didn't BTW!

The thing is though, the government (of whatever stripe) can't make us do any of this. We (as in the population of GB) have to want things to change.

Somehow living in a more equal society needs to be seen by the majority to be attractive. Paying taxes to get stuff that you can use to make your life better (like good education, healthcare, social care, family life) needs to be seen to be a good option rather than giving "them" our hard-earned cash.

It'll take all sorts of changes in the way we think, like recognising that someone who cleans toilets has just as hard a job in many ways than someone who has a high-status job, that living on benefits isn't easy street.

Any government that tries to make us do any of this will be voted out quick-smart. The change in attitude has to come from society first, not saying that government can't have a role in this though.

Oh, yes, everyone so believes you, Mr Darling!

LOL.

Get real.

Yeah, it'll improve next year, after he's out of office and riding off into the sunset with his gold-plated pension from the public and commanding whacking great consulting fees when I've met Big Issue sellers who could do a better job of running the country.

Same shit, different day from this lot in power.

I agree that something has to change but I don't agree that it's all down to the government/the banks. There is a huge level of personal responsibility in this as well, and it's time that people started taking personal responsibility for how their finances have ended up.

No it shouldn't be easy to get into debt or to borrow 125% of the value of the house you want to buy, but ultimately, no-one held a gun to these peoples' heads and made them do it. People who got into that level of debt chose to do so - you can rent - it's not essential to own a house.

Ultimately it's simple, if you can't afford what you want then you don't buy it. But we live in a must-have society where people feel they have an entitlement to a new car, a foreign holiday every year, to buy a house they can't afford, even if that means they're in negative equity as soon as they move in.

I am glad that 100% mortgages and above are now a thing of the past. but I have little sympathy for those who borrowed beyond their means out of greed. No-one is responsible for the state they're in now but them.

OP YANBU
This is the point I was trying to make on my 'easter present madness thread' but some people just didnt get it.

{darns socks}

I think if you got say 5% interest rate, in theory you could borrow about £250K but that doesn't include life insurance etc. I have absolutely never understood how people are affording these huge mortgages as my DH and I have a good joint income (I don't mean to keep banging on about this but it is relevant) and couldn't afford more than £300k, when all around people seemed to be buying for much much more! How did they afford it? They weren't all getting 110% mortgages. I often find macro-economics quite baffling. And micro for that matter.

shonaspurtle, I totally agree. We get the government we deserve. Unfortunately we do not have a Barrack Obama equivalent over here. (I do hope he is the real deal though. Time will tell.)