To think there are more than "a few bad apples" in the police force?

[nellynaemates]

I'm not anti-police, you won't hear me spouting on about the "pigs" or any such unpleasantness. I don't come to this as someone who has an irrational and in-built hatred of the police.

However, having read about the recent incidents at the G20 protests it sounds to me as though there was an organised effort to brutalise the protesters. In the Guardian yesterday a young woman described how she was laughing and joking with officers earlier in the day and how they told her that there was a surprise coming up.

Half an hour later it all kicked off and I urge anyone who hasn't to read the testimonies of these protesters. It is frightening and reads like descriptions of violence in totalitarian states.

"Peaceful" protests don't seem to be allowed to exist any more. People are cordoned off like dangerous animals and attacked for the slightest thing (or nothing at all).

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would think twice before going to a protest now because I wouldn't feel safe. In a supposedly democratic country this should not be the case.

I'm not saying all police are bad, but I do believe that a combination of the culture surrounding the "war on terror" and the fact that the police force is bound to attract some unpleasant and power-hungry thugs into its ranks means that we have real problems with trusting police to always be on the side of the law-abiding member of the public.

Well put Tattifer.

many would be crims become police or army to channel their negative energies, I mean

What I find really odd is that we can all watch Bond,and other films about the nebulous line between 'good' and 'bad' within law, politics and espionarge - then get all 'eek!' Daily Mail when we find out it isn't fiction. The press are just winding us up, pushing our buttons - we are all suckers for it...imho

Haven't read all of this but...

Policemen hit protesters shocker - no-ones really surprised.

The problem is that the high up types then lied about it.

As they lied about what happened with J-C Menezes.

So that the papers reported the lies and what actually happened came out later. Very bad.

That means that the self-protecting cover-up attitude goes right to the top. They think they can do what they like.

Plus the anti-terrorism laws mean they can "detain" anyone they like for no reason whatsoever except they don't like their face.

Glad someone mentioned that power station thing as well. My immediate thought was "they've used the anti-terrorism laws to stop a normal protest, if it was real terrorists they don't go out in a mob of 100+ singing..."

At work I said idly to my colleuage "there's no right to peaceful protest in this country any more is there", her answer was a simple "no".

Ballina no offence (pun intended) but I joined the police not because I was no good as a drug dealer but because I wanted to contribute something meaningful back into my community, because I gave enough of a damn about what kind of a society my kids were going to grow up in and because my husband said he liked ladies in uniform.

Standing behind a shop counter all day just didn't do it for me - but I loved the people contact. So I joined the police - more people than you can wave a stick at (not that I would unless a dynamic risk assessment led me to believe that no other action would persuade them to desist from the behaviour that led to my considering drawing the baton in the first place) and more meaningful contribution than I know what to do with.

I haven't changed the world, never will, but that's something I'm just going to have live with

Well of course the police force are recruited from the rest of society. What I find alarming, is that within the police force, there appears to be a belief that demonstrators and protestors are not part of the rest of society. I really think the police need to examine their culture because several people have said on this thread (and in RL) that they would not feel safe attending a demonstration nowadays; well that is a disgraceful failure of policing and for the police to not understand that, shows an alarming separation from the communities they are supposed to be part of. The great strength of any police force is that it is indeed a part of the community it serves; as soon as it starts to be separated from its community, there's trouble.

Ballina I am no failed criminal and find your point of view offensive.
The majority of Officers policing the demo will tonight be scraping drunks off the pavements, attending violent domestics and arresting drug dealers.
Putting their lives on the line whilst they do so, so that people like you can live in a safe society ( and it is really).
Police Officers are not thick or aggressive, most of my colleagues, like me aredoing are best dealing with those that society would rather ignore.
I put a lot into my job and every now and then I get some satisfaction from it.
Those Officers who obscured their numbers so that they can assault protesters, deserve whaat they get.
BUT I can assure you that officers like that really are in the minority. I would leave the Police if it was otherwise.

I can't say I agree with your assessment that "the police" do not see demonstrators as part of society.

Firstly, I think it's not entirely helpful to think of the police force as being one force - the regional forces often differ greatly in terms of their management, manifesto, culture etc. Even within one force you'll see differences in between sections/departments.

Secondly, the trouble with demonstrations is they involve crowds - you cannot deal with a crowd as a collection of individuals - crowds don't work like that. Again, there is no excuse for unnecessary violence - I wrote many a paper on the use of police during the 70s and in particular the 80s and the rights and wrongs of crowd control (granddaughter of a miner who was out in the general strike of 1926). When things go wrong (and they do) it would be more constructive to look at why than to concentrate on scapegoating someone or an entire organisation.

Yes I take your point that different police forces and even depts within have different cultures; that's true of every big organisation. I suppose we're using "the police" here as shorthand.

And yes I agree that crowd control is a specific form of policing. But the attitude which underpins the policing of crowds, ought to be that the crowd has the right to exist and should be facilitiated to protest peacefully. The current policing of demos doesn't appear to show that. Which is not to say that some bits of the police don't believe that, but at the moment it's looking like they're outnumbered at demos.

I think more realistically you have to look at the irony of a form of government that says you have a right to protest but gets very uneasy when anyone actually does.

There are many good police officers and support staff who do good, if not fantastic work despite the home office's (the government's) input!

tattifer - I'm sure that has to be true! I thought about joining the police, then realised at a recruitment event that I'd effectively be upholding the home secretary's latest whim (at the time Michael Howard - eeurgh!) and was completely put off. But has not stopped me having complete admiration for policemen and women.

How much has dealing with the "dregs of society" (to put it in a Daily Mailish sort of way) changed your view of people in general? If at all? I recognise you'll not be dealing with drug dealers all day every day, but presumably more often than i do!

I get fed up with demonisation of professions - a few bad apples in the Met, 15 or was it 18,000 bad teachers. It's press hype as ballina has pointed out, and it's the ministers who should take responsibility, not leave it to the people at the sharp end.

I don't think I see them as the daily mail does!

The experience of life on the beat teaches you that you cannot generalise in quite the same way as others would but yes, sometimes you can judge a book by its cover. I meet homeless street drinkers who are basically shuffling nearer to death every day who are civil, warm friendly people - with or without (rarely) a drink inside them. I've given friendly advice to a respectable churchgoer and been given a mouthful of abuse and threatening behaviour, I take people as I find them and as the situation shows them to be. It's my job to arrive at the best outcome for all parties, not to be nice to the gut with the biggest wage packet.

There are some genuinely nasty people - income and social standing don't seem to be deciding factors!

guy - not gut (freudian slip..?)

'cope with Mr Tomlinson' was being bitterly ironic, StayFrosty.

Tattifer, I think you must be feeling 'got at' a little.

Yes, the Police are recruited from among us. Yes, trouble makers don't come with badges. Which is why we understand the foibles on both sides. The Police have had training and lots of experience to be able to discern even under extreme stress to ascertain who is being threatening and who isn't. No?

Police enter this sort of demonstration with a lot of physical protection because they (and we) expect to be harassed by certain elements in the crowd, it is only sensible from a H&S POV. It also means though that the same protection allows them to take on some physical abuse before responding with equal physical force.

What we see is the police goading protesters and that is not what we expect from a service who are supposed to protect the protesters and thereby the democratic right to dissent in a peaceful way as well as themselves from unsavoury elements within the crowd.

When the Police behave like another gang, then they lose the moral ground to police, iyswim. no one will win in the long run if there is a breakdown of trust on both sides, within the broader spectrum of society. It will mean that more civilians will behave in an aggressive way with the Police responding in kind.

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I think you need to credit posters here with a bit more intelligence here.

Well be offended. Its a free country. Had I said all policemen are closet criminals you might have something to be offended by. Just hope I never have to negotiate anything complex with either of you on a dark night!

Wasn't feeling got at all foxy. But thank you for your concern

As I said earlier, the press like to focus on that which sells papers or gets people to tune in to the news instead of the Simpsons etc. I've attended many rallies and not had any trouble - we weren't on the telly that evening either funnily enough. The need to polarise opinion, to talk about extremes is not the start of a necessary debate about policing as part of a changing society. Demonisation is not helpful, constructive or clever.

As for crediting posters with more intelligence, I don't believe I've said anything that indicates any intelligence rating one way or another.

Ballina had it spot on when saying "The press are just winding us up, pushing our buttons - we are all suckers for it...imho"

And there's always a large amount of people who fall for their button pushing hook, line and sinker, everytime!

I agree completely with ShowofHands post on page one - very well said

am married to a police officer and work within the force, its just the same as any other establishment - has a few bad apples that taint the rest unfortunately

"Its a free country" ha ha ha - I needed that, it was all in danger of getting too serious

I don't think the police have got worse; they have been like this for at least the last 40 years. For the police to attack someone and then get the innocent person they attacked sent to prison (and I have seen this happen, not just read about it in the Guardian), there has to be corruption encompassing more people than a few bad apples.

I agree it must be difficult to have to deal with criminals every day and never respond with lies, deceit or excessive violence. But that is surely part of the job description isn't it? Moaning about crime if you work for the police is a bit like being a teacher who has detests the company of children, or being a drugs counsellor who loathes addicts. Police are there to prevent and detect crime, surely? Their role is not meant to be punitive.

I don't think the issue is the behviour of the police; it is the growing sense that we are not allowed to criticise or properly investigate the police, social services, mental health services and so on because we should just be grateful for their existence and not demoralise the staff! But it is central to democracy that enforcers of the law and those that can curtail freedom and wield power are subject to more public scrutiny than ordinary citizens.

Ordinary people have always fought for their rights, and we always will have to, or they will be chipped away until our society becomes unreconisable.

the police are heavily investigated and are accountable on all counts (as they should be) where we are MillyR but they (along with social services NHS staff etc etc) do a very difficult job for very little reward

christmas bonuses for good performance? no
annual leave when they want it? no
getting to leave the office at clocking off time? no
getting paid for working past clocking off time? no
having more than 24hrs notice of change in shifts? no
having the required amount of rest time inbetween shifts? no

these are just in my experience but they're common across the board and as much as it doesn't explain why the bad apples exist I think people are very quick to critisise the emergency services these days

If people are being unlawfully killed or having their liberty removed or being denied the right to demonstrate, I can't see the relevance of public sector christmas bonuses.

But it is the kind of response that is wheeled out a lot when people are complaining about the treatment of vulnerable people.

I was just trying to point out that as one of the most scrutinised jobs in the country they are rarely rewarded for good work but are (understandably in most cases) dragged very publically over the coals for when something goes wrong

am not defending those who overstep the mark but these individuals are thankfully few and far between, they're just the most publicised ones

dizzy I agree, especially with people being quick to complain about the emergency services.

There is no good excuse or justifiable reason for abuse of power or station in any role. To condemn an entire organistion is ridiculous. To question extremes of behaviour in certain individuals is essential.

If I said I thought that stay at home mums were lazy bovines who didn't contribute one iota to society apart from extra mouths to feed I'd be lynched - and deservedly so. To make such a grotesque all encompassing statement would be well, grotesque. To make similarly sweeping statements about "the police" is equally as daft and grotesque. Some people who work in shops are rude and unhelpful - but I don't see the entire profession in those terms and I'm not stupid enough to think that the rude and unhelpful ones are rude and unhelpful all the time. Ditto "the police" and any other service out there.

I think the "bad apples" in the police force are really a tiny minority and there was an element at this protest out to cause trouble...did no one else see the policeman being hit over the head with the baseball bat? Since when have "peaceful protestors" taken baseball bats with them...oh I guess he was having a game in the park on the way home

I think the same as with the armed forces the problems come when they close ranks and dont hold those in the wrong accountable for their actions.

I have to say I tend to take the whole "I was just standing there minding my own business when a policeman did X, Y Z with a pinch of salt" I worked in a probation office and majority of people on probation claimed "innocence"

Ive never had a problem with the police but them ive never broken the law, I was pulled over once as my car was faulty but they were polite, gave me the benefit of the doubt and let me go...they do a good job which I wouldnt do for all the money in the world

Condemning an entire organsisation isn't the issue.

When the McPherson report condemned the police as "institutionally racist", he wasn't saying that every single police officer up and down the country was a raging ku klux klan sympathiser. What he was saying, is that in its culture, attitudes and systems, the police force was promoting racism and treating black victims and perpetrators of crime differently from white ones.

What some of us are saying here, is that in its policing of demos, the police may be suffering from a simliar root and branch culture which is anti-protest and anti-dissent. And given that an overall review of police tactics have been ordered, the police themselves appear to believe there might be something to be desired.