to not allow my child to do a reading in church?

[GooseyLoosey]

Dh and I are atheists. The dcs attend the local school which is C of E (although wholly state funded). There are no alternative non-C of E schools locally.

The school tends towards being very religious and there is a special Easter service in church for the school this week. Ds (5) has been given a reading to do at this service. It includes many "Praise God" and "God is good" type statements.

I don't wish to over react but getting ds to actively participate in an act of worship may be a step too far for me. AIBU to object and to consider telling them to get someone else to do this?

goosey - I apologise if this question has been asked (but its a long thread and I am a latecomer and can't find it on scanning!)

but

Have you actually exercised your right to withdraw DC from religious parts of the curriculum?

Spongebrain (great name by the way). I did not necessarily mean that religion and morality are intrinsically linked, and that non-religious people are amoral. I was just wondering what the basis of other people's morality system is, if it doesn't emanate from their religious beliefs.

Interesting that you stated "treat others as you'd be treated". There was a Rabbi called Hillel, who had a non-Jew come to him and ask Hillel to help him convert to Judaism, but on condition that he be taught the whole Torah while standing on one leg. Hillel said "Don't do to others what you wouldn't have them do to you. The rest is all commentary".

As for: religion = war argument, you can easily say the same for Nationalism. How many people have died for their country? Does it mean that people are now running around asking for all nations to be dissolved? My argument is: if people want to kill others or destroy them, they will use any excuse to do so.

Actually I do think that there should be no religion within schools, as in the case in Aemrica and France.

And yes, I am also a disestablishmentarianist I think the state should be separated from the Church. BTW - I am in Scotland, so the Church of England is not our "state" religion.

And here in Scotland, where we have religious schools that are truly part of the state system (in that the Catholic schools were fully brought within the state system and we effectively have two catchment schools: the Catholic school and the non-denom school) I have seen the damage that can be caused by that system

Nomoreamover - I lived where I live and became part of the community long, long before I had children or even thought of it. A great part of the reason I live where I do is that it has an extremely strong sense of community. My children were born into that community and are part of it. It is important to them. The church by contrast is a very small part of that community - all most no one goes to services on a Sunday and by far and away the majority of community activities are secular. I have no intention of taking my children away from the environment and people they have known all of their lives and, in reality THERE IS NO OTHER SCHOOL in the area that they could go to which is not CofE.

Perhaps as some have suggested, I could move. I will not do this for many reasons. One is the importance of the community to me, another is the sheer lack of practicality but, the final one is that it is the existence of state funded church schools which is wrong, not my lack of belief or otherwise and I will not collude with a system which is so wrong - I prefer to stand my ground and object.

nomore, I didn't say religion = war, but equally double bloody yawn at the atheists have no morals argument.

It cuts both ways and I get sick to the back teeth of being asked how I understand morality with no god. Ridiculous - religion can claim no moral high ground. Fact. Yawn all you want.

bleh, as another poster said, my morals come from being a thinking human being and living as part of a civilised society.

Totally agree with you about nationalism too, but nationalists are not claiming a moral way of living in the way that the religious sometimes disparage those with no religion (Thought for the Day being an excellent example). Religions cannot claim that they have all the answers on morals as many many ills are committed in the name of religion.

The "do as to others . . " way of living is what I will be teach my DCs.

Glad you like the name!

The brainwashing theory is interesting.

Aren't you brainwashing your kids by telling them there is no God? You're not leaving the door open for them to make up their own minds, you are making their minds up for them. Athiesm is like a religion in itself these days.

Yet I'll bet many of you tell your kids about Father Christmas don't you?

Well my understanding of morality is a practical one: if you are kind, fair, not violent to other people without a very good reason, then generally it makes for a better and more comfortable life. Human beings are social animals and depend upon a degree of co-operation. However human beings are also fairly tribal: will co-operate within the tribe and band together against 'outsiders' (another function of religion that the powerful find very handy). And the amount of religous 'morality' that is a matter of enforcing obedience, privileging some groups and opressing others, and justifying genocide means that religion is on a bit of a losing streak when trying to insist that you can't be a good person without an imaginary friend.

sponge brain if you read my posts you'll see that at no point have I questioned the morality of athiests. At no point have I suggested that the OP has no right to be an athiest. I have chosen to follow a religion that often gets branded as violent and I do get bored of hearing illinformed people suggest that all priests are paedophiles and all IRA membhers are staunch catholics who are defending their faith - so forgive me if I get a little sensitve over the religion and fighting discussions

prettybird - I think you'll find I was AGREEING with you. Do you think I LIKE having the CofE branded about as the "true" faith of our country - when actually the UK was RC long before the CofE even existed. It offends me immensely that someone of my faith is not welcome in the Royal Family. I do not agree with a monarchy by the way - but as long as we have to put up with one I would rather it was Prince Charles in Charge as he has openly declared that when King he will be the Defender of ALL faiths - and that I think is to be applauded - although it'd be better if he said "ALL faiths and none".......

OP - I agree with your right to live where you want but I am trying (very badly apprently) to explain that I don't hink you can have your cake and eat it. Either your DCs are withdrawn from religious acts in school period or you accept that they may well be asked to take a more active role if they are "signed up" for it so to speak.

Am I making any sense here or just winding everyone up?

I think brainwashing is much more than that. We don't talk about God at home - why should we?

If ds brings it up after talking about something at school, we'll just say "some people beleive that - we don't happen to". We don't make a big thing about it.

it does help that his "SOcial and Moral Education" time at school os all done in this way too, becasue of its high ethnicity. So depedening on the "festivals" coming up, they will study Eid, Easter, Diwali, the Nativity, etc, on the basis that "this is what Christians/Sikhs/Hindus/Muslim/Jews beleive" as appropriate.

Think the FC argument is a red herring, Rhubs - it's temporary, it's a bit of childhood magic, it's not something with which to define your life.

i will tell dd that we (DH and I) don't believe in God. I wasn't given that as a child - was just told from every quarter that there was a god, etc etc - I think most atheists will tell their children that they don't believe in a God, as most of us have come to that through lots of thought. And if some don't - well, loads of religious people don't give the options either, and I'm not claiming any moral or parenting high ground for atheists - we get things wrong too!

"imaginery friend"

I'm pretty sure that not all athiests are as rude.

The times I've listened to people recount ghost stories to me, not once have I told them that I think they're making it all up. I don't believe in ghosts and think there is a perfectly rational explanation behind it all, no doubt as you think to religion. But because I'm not rude or aggressive, I would not tell a person that. I would listen politely, perhaps suggest a few theories, but if they are clearly intent on believing their side of the story, I'd just leave it.

Same with tarot cards, horoscopes, any kind of fortune telling. I don't believe in any of it, but that doesn't give me the right to make any feel inferior because they do.

It would say more about me as a person than it would them.

Habbibu - what do you think the majority of us do? We tell our kids that we believe in God, but we don't ram it down their throats. We tell them about other religions too and we explain that some people don't believe in it.

Yes, there will be those who insist on prayers before meals etc etc. But there are also athiests who insist on having their children 'educated' the athiest way.

Live and let live eh?

I didn't say anyone did, Rhubs! I didn't think as a child that it was rammed down my throat - just in hindsight I was so surrounded by it that it didn't occur to me that any other options existed!

We didn't do prayers before meals, etc - it wasn't, I think, a particularly pious household, and I had a very happy childhood, which I hope to recreate for dd in many ways. I'd just like her to be far more aware of other things than I did. I do dread her talking to her cousins about it, as my sister is, i think, very uncomfortable with my atheism, and it may mean her children have to hear what we think from dd - I'd rather it didn't happen (coward emoticon) but I can't not tell dd what we believe either.

goosey - your original question was am I being unreasonable to not want my DC to do a reading in church.

Ok having found out more information about where you live, why you live there and how string your beliefs are I would answer that

yes YABU - because although you have no other choice of school, you do have the choice of whether DC is involved in the religious part of the school. Faith schools tend to have an insistence that teachers who work there are "sympathetic to the aims of..." (insert the denomination). You cannot pick and choose which bits of the religious stuff you think is appropriate - you either accept it of you don't - school isn't a cafeteria - you can't choose which subjects you consider ok and those you don't. But you can withdraw your child from the religious side of things - and that is you right and priviledge in law. So again I say choose your stance and stick to it. (cake and eat it etc etc)

HOWEVER - do I think its reasonable that the only state school you have on your doorstep is a denominational faith school - absolutely not! The state needs to wake up and realise the modern Britain (Wales, Scotland and/or England) IS NOT all PROTESTANT anymore. Henry 8th is long dead and yet we are still living by his legacy. That OP, I sympathise with you ono. Why shouldn't you have a non faith school to choose from?

Rhubs good post re imaginary friends.

'Inferior' IS the word to sum up how I think people post it see me. AndI think I am equal.

Itstrue thatall reliiouspeople force their beliefs: ds1 has no faith, his choice.

posted without using the preview....should say although teachers ahve to be sympathetic blah blah parents do not have to sign up to that

Also obviously your beliefs are strong not "string"...sorry

i really didn't mean to imply that any faith was forced on me - but it was just a given - don't think it occurred to my family to question their beliefs, I went to RC schools, church, guides (briefly), etc etc - it was only when I went to unviersity that I was really exposed to the possibility that there was no god, and it really resonated with me much more than religion ever had.

nomore - no I have not withdrawn ds from assemblies etc as when he started school is was a bit "square peg - round hole" and I would not do anything to make him stand out with his peers. I have struggled at lot with this but have settled for letting him experience what all of his friends do and telling him what we believe at home. However, this is just a step too far for me - he is not participating in a group activity but being required to make an individual declaration that God exists and Jesus died for our sins.

Rhubarb - I don't think telling my children that there is no God is brainwashing - I am teaching the facts about the world as I see it. My own personal views do not allow for the possibility of the existence of God. It is not however a big part of our lives, it simply does not come up often unless someone has mentioned God to one of the dcs and we do not sit around the table chanting about the non-existence of divinity. I save that for here.

Habb inn fairnesssomepeople do forcetheirfaith on their kids, that is a fact.

Habbibu, sorry was just responding to what I perceived you were saying.

Lukily I have many friends who are atheists, one of them even took part in ds's christening as his Godfather (but not in a religious sense). dh also has had experience with lots of other religions and is an agnostic.

So whilst the kids are being brought up as Catholic, we do inform them about world religions as a whole and we also tell them about evolution and atheism. Because I'd like to think that they have several doors open to them from which they can choose. Sure I'd be a bit disappointed if they chose atheism, but that's their prerogative and I'd support them with that.

How would an atheist feel however, if their child grew up and chose religion?

goosey - and you wonder why he is a square peg round hole? He must be terribly confused as you appear to have sat on the fence (and are now getting splinters up your bum!)

"How would an atheist feel however, if their child grew up and chose religion? "

Good question. I guess I wouldn't be ecstatic, if I'm to be honest, because if you take a position on belief, or anything big/important you tend to think you're right, and anything your child does that seems like a rejection of your views is probably going to be galling.

I do think/hope though, that dd will be able to talk to me about her choices and her life more than I feel I can talk to my (otehrwise fantastic) family about mine - I'd have loved a humanist wedding, but that was a step too far for my family, so we had a civil one instead.

nomoreamover - that's really unfair. Yes I do wonder why he is the way he is and am often consumed with guilt that it might be as a result of my parenting. I have never sat on the fence but have tried not to undermine the school or force my views upon my son. This might be the subject of 600+ posts here but is not something we have spent hours discussing at home.

bleh - Perhaps you would find my post less annoying if you actually understood what I meant.

I don't think "all religious people are brainwashed". However, I do think that at age 3, any religious "education" is indoctrination and hence brainwashing ("God exists. Jesus was his son. Here, recite this prayer"), because child can't reason/argue/decide for himself and believes everything he is told by an authority figure.

I have no problem with DD finding out about religion and making up her own mind at a later age, when she will be able to judge what she is told on its own merits rather than swallow it whole. For now, she is blissfully unaware of the whole subject.