to not allow my child to do a reading in church?

[GooseyLoosey]

Dh and I are atheists. The dcs attend the local school which is C of E (although wholly state funded). There are no alternative non-C of E schools locally.

The school tends towards being very religious and there is a special Easter service in church for the school this week. Ds (5) has been given a reading to do at this service. It includes many "Praise God" and "God is good" type statements.

I don't wish to over react but getting ds to actively participate in an act of worship may be a step too far for me. AIBU to object and to consider telling them to get someone else to do this?

Great post BalloonSlayer.

It is often surprising how many people of apparently no faith turn to their vicar when the going gets rough. It may just be that they see him/her as a kind person who will willing listen to their problems without being shocked or taking sides (which indeed is what they ought to be), but it is amazing how many people suddenly find that when the big stuff happens, they turn to the Church.

GooseyLoosey, I can't actually see any good reason why your DS should do the reading, bearing in mind your latest post. If you are not willing to take it "on a level" and just have him read the words (and fair play if you feel to do so would be hypoctritical) then he shouldn't do it.

mrsmellowdrummer - your post yesterday. Exactly! You don't want to be saying to your 4yo that the teacher is wrong, because that would seem to undermine her. And although when she's talking directly about Christianity as an RE subject, you can say, well, not everyone believes that, you'll have to make your own mind up. But when your 4yo is getting cross because she asks you what causes the weather, you go to great lengths to explain about clouds and evaporation etc etc, but the 4yo says no no no teacher says God makes the weather. Well. I throw up my hands.

And we have several "good" (i.e. Ofstead outstanding) schools in our area, but not one is secular. It is ridiculous to say we should not send our children if we don't like it - there is no choice.

Gracie, there can't be evidence to support a belief. It's just that - a belief. That's why it can't be science.

I'm not 100% sure why Christians feel the need to try and prove that creationism is true - if you believe it then surely that is all that matters. You will never convince scientists that it is true because you cannot provide any real (i.e. robust) evidence for it. But why should that worry anyone who believes?

On the subject of people queuing to get into faith schools, I'm sorry I don't buy the argument that this anything to do with the religious element of it - it is because generally these are selective schools (openly or otherwise) and where selection takes place you have very interested parents who are fully supportive of their child's education, hence you get better results.

It has sod all to do with the god element and I actually find it quite offensive, having taught at an excellent non-denominational school. Good schools rely on interested parents - not a belief in god.

The collective worship is a difficult issue for atheist head teachers - my head never mentioned god in assembly once because he was an atheist and he just wasn't comfortable with it. We occasionally had the local vicar in but mainly our assemblies were about morals and thinking of others and how to be a good person - no mention of religion. And yes, that is in contradiction of the Education Act but it felt right for our school.

I still keep coming back to this argument which seems quite common amongst the believers.

"I suspect that is because for a quite a few so called atheists (not anybody on this thread obviously) it is a default position because they haven't ever put any thought into the subject at all."

Historically and culturally we are Christian. Our society has christian beliefs at the core of it's laws and morality. Surely if you don't want to think too hard about religion/spitiruality/belief etc, it's just easier to be vaguely Christian in a "I believe in something in a sort of Church of England way" than atheist? All the athiests I know have thought long and hard about belief and the nature of religion. Many of them have read deeply across both Christianity and other religions. It's a bit patronising to metaphorically pat them on the head and tell them if they only read the bible they'd change their minds.

Slug I both agree and strongly disagree with you tbh.

I totally agree that assuming someone is an Atheist as they ahven't thought it through is at best patronising and at worst offensive; when I was an Atheist it was after thought, and i think many people reach that conclsion after much consideratin.

But assuming my 'wishy washy' non CofW Christianity is a result of any less consideration is also totally wrong; i'v spent eyars working out where I stand, and its only recently I coicked on a Quaker website and saw a declaration of faith that matched what I believe. I ave searched far and wide to get thus far, being unwilling (and therefore less than lazy) to settle for easy but not a good fit. TBH your assumption that I did that is as unfair as those you complain of.

Now my guess is that pretty much anyone who can be arsed to click on this topin of MN has given good consideration to their beleifs and tus deserves our respect of that if not our agreement.

You're absolutely right slug - I have read the bible. That's why I'm an atheist!

I agree with slug. Most of the atheists I encounter in RL have thought deeply about the subject and I have had some very interesting discussions with friends as to what they think is the origin of morality, the universe and so on.

However, what I've noticed on many websites, is that those advocating the atheist veiwpoint repeatedly denigrate religious viewpoints and assume that if someone is religious, they are a) stupid, b) naive or c) uneducated. They seem to assume that most religious people have not read anything beyond the bible or religious texts. While I agree that there are many religious people who are like that, this does not apply to everyone.

I keep seeing this thread but with 500+ posts I really shouldn't contribute as I'm fairly certain that whatever I say will have been said already, points made and lost and the OP long forgotten about!

But, as a catholic myself, I would tell the OP that it is not unreasonable to ask that your ds not participate in the service. I work at a CofE school and we have lots of athiests (btw, what is the difference between bringing a child up as an athiest or as a Christian, both are surely just leading the child towards your way of thinking?). If we know that child to be an athiest then we don't pressurise them to get involved.

Do the school know you are an athiest. Because if it's known, I'm surprised they asked your ds to do a reading.

Just a gentle word in their ear should do the trick.

I don't argee with that at all Slug - I was not suggesting at all that if you pat them on the head they would become Christian. They were your words. They may be well consider themselves atheist after careful thought. Who knows.

I just think if you went around town centre pubs and clubs on a Friday night, for example, and asked an average bunch of young adults their views they would tell you they didn't believe in God, it was all a load of rubbish. A lot of them won't have been exposed to any real religious argument since RE lesson at school which would no doubt have been boring.

I think large parts of the less educated population (no not your average MNer) won't have thought much about religion at all and would be very scathing about it. Why else do you think church numbers are so low? A lot of it is apathy - people haven't even thought about it long enough to reject it, they just aren't interested enough to find out.

Fair enough. We can argue about it here until the cows come home but it would never be a topic of conversation for many, many people.

OP - Surely the important point here is that your DS thinks the text is silly and doesn't want to do it. Tell the school that he doesn't want to do it, and that is the end of it. They can't force him.

On a separate note, I feel for those of you who have no choice but CoE schools. I've only ever lived in two fiercely secular countries and can't imagine having to hand DD (3) over to be brainwashed educated in a religious institution because there is just no alternative.

Niecie, I would take great issue with your assertion that atheism is over-represented in the 'less educated population' - I would say precisely the opposite is true actually and if the BBC poll (that 75% of the UK consider themselves to be Christian) is to be believed this simply doesn't stack up.

See: Cotedazur's post just showed the exact thing that I find so annoying. (the brainwashed thing). If atheists continue to argue their point by assuming that all religious people are stupid/brainwashed/brain dead/ believe in fairies, I will never respect your opinions or believes, because you fail to respect the opinions and beliefs of others.

I may be getting this completely wrong, but I thought thought that the Humanists' ideal, those who wanted a more secular society, did so because they wanted to end discrimination; that they wanted people to be able to live in a society where they had the right to choose to have a belief or not, to end things such as pogroms or religious wars. Instead, it seems that nowadays a lot of atheists are just as intolerant and closed minded as some of the religious people they criticise. In my opinion, people like Richard Dawkins are fundamentalist atheists, equivalent to the ayatollahs in Iran.

Where did you get those stats from? They aren't the ones I have seen. 45% is the best I could come up with.

I think it's a very basic couretest to assume anyone posting here ahs considered their faith; indeed the very act of posting constitutes that in many ways- it's those who avoid debate or who dismiss everyone elses beliefs as irrelevant that I mistrust.

But like Cote I do think it's wrong that preople should be forced to use a faith school; I firmly beleive in RE as a factual people based subject that all children should study, but also that worship should be either private or at the very least optional. The most extreme levels are optional even at our 300 year old Church run school- ds2 has chosen to take conformation classes, ds1 not- so if they can mange it I cannot see why others can't tbh.
I have ahd issues over their alck of teaching of other faiths but have been asked to assist in remedying that myself which is a positive (and also shows that a difference can be amde if done in a non confrontational way from within)

Ok I am echoing others on here but I agree that YABU - sorry1

You send your child to a CofE school - if it bothered you that much to not have your child "subjected" to God talk you should have picked a school further away that wasn't faith based. I do understand your frustration as I am not CofE and its very difficult locally to find a school that isn't CofE - which is why I moved house to be close to an RC school.

If your beliefs are very important to you (and I am all for accepting that not everyone believes in a montheistic deity - and nor should they) then I suspect you need to seriously consider where you live and whether its worth moving to find a school that suits your family values or else you stay put and accept that your DCs may grow up loving and wanting God in their lives......

My children will have the choice at a later date as they will attend a non-denominational secondary school. Is that an option for your family? Is the local secondary school a faith based school? If not it may be worth just riding this until age 11. Sorry you've had this experience - it must be hard - I wouldn't be comfortable with my child reading something in a COfE church as i would think they'd get confused...but then thats why we moved!

Last census shows 72% say they're Christian - here

I have no stats available but I do seem to remember from both Sociolgy and RE courses that many people classify themselves as Christian and form a majority without actively participating in any aspect of the faith.

Whether another Christian would define them as such is another matter entirely of course!

But my pure conjecture isthat those people are as likely to post on this thread as they are likely to turn up for Church on arandom non feast Sunday

Lol at the comparison of Dawkins with the ayatollahs in Iran - because he regularly calls for people to be put to death because they disagree with his point of view .

Niecie, quoted way back in the thread - can't remember by whom. 45% sounds much more realistic IMO (and I would actually put the figure who truly believe (i.e. have thought about it properly) much lower than that - as each generation becomes less religious than the last. I know lots of people who's parents go to church but v few go to church themselves) and if it is less than half the population then the argument is made for abolishing the need for daily Christian worship in schools (and actually for dis-establishing the church also).

This reminds me of my MIL's reaction after Dd performed a Bengali Christmas carol for her. "What! She's not Bengali - why is she singing in Bengali???" etc etc etc .

By expressing such strong views through your child, you're limiting your child's experience and understanding of the world no less than a fundamentalist Christian withdrawing their child from a Biology lesson.

Like it or not, the world has many people who build their lives and decisions around religion. You will limit his understanding and interaction with people in the future if you indoctrinate him into being the kind of adult who shuffles out of the room embarrassed whenever people pray. 'It's all silly - ignore it' might work around a likeminded family table - but it doesn't really explain 'why' or 'how' once he's outside the family atheist bubble.

x-psoted with all the stats!

OP - does your son want to do the reading? I know you said he thinks the content is "silly" but this is obviously not the same thing as not wanting to read. If he wants to read it let him do it. If he doesn't, tell the school to ask someone else.

I admire your conscientiousness, but all the angst over whether ds believes what he is saying (at the age of 5!) seems a bit crazy to me.

nomore its been said before on here bt its not ever that easy- especially atm; people have rental contracts, negatve equity, struggle to sell, or have opther strong commitments that keep them local (forexample if I moved another son would lose a place at a very good special needs unit ). just saying move then over simplifies things; some people can, some cannot.

I can't believe a 5 year old would comment on the content of a reading being silly.

Have mulled this, Op - as an ex-Catholic atheist, I think I'd let my dd do it - it seems like a battle not worth fighting. I wouldn't like my dd to have the same unthinking approach to RE that I had in school (though it didn't bother me at the time), but this, I think, would have to count as the small stuff in the wider scheme of things.

If you don't like what appears to be a prayer/credo type thing, could he not do a bible reading - that's essentially just reading something out without it appearing to be a personal affirmation.

My DH did a reading at my sister's wedding, and is also a confirmed atheist. Didn't bother him, though we did decline when she asked us to be godparents - that struck us as bigger stuff.

And re: other faiths, IME the divide is 'believers' and 'non-believers' .

When it comes to interacting with people - understanding what drives them - respecting their lifestyle - I find it much easier to find common ground with a muslim than with an atheist. We do similar things with our kids, presented slightly differently. I think understanding one faith on many levels (rather than just as a set of rules and stories) makes you more understanding of other faiths.

"It's all a bunch of fairy tales for the weak minded" is more divisive than "this is how I believe in God, how do you believe in God".