to not allow my child to do a reading in church?

[GooseyLoosey]

Dh and I are atheists. The dcs attend the local school which is C of E (although wholly state funded). There are no alternative non-C of E schools locally.

The school tends towards being very religious and there is a special Easter service in church for the school this week. Ds (5) has been given a reading to do at this service. It includes many "Praise God" and "God is good" type statements.

I don't wish to over react but getting ds to actively participate in an act of worship may be a step too far for me. AIBU to object and to consider telling them to get someone else to do this?

Nice

I dont give a toss if you belive what I believe or not. I just think its rude to call it crap.

If a driver on a bus refused to drive it because it had God on the side or not, or a picture of a naked woman etc. I would respect them for standing up for their views. I would support them. I wouldnt have to agree with them.

Of course this becomes clouded when people seriously belive that black people are inferior or women shouldnt work etc.

But then I never said I knew the answer to everything.

wonder what goosey's decided to do?

Yes, I'd like to know what the OP decided.

But I think it has also been a really interesting thread about what people believe, and why they believe it.

SGB. Nail on head. I can respect the person who holds religious beliefs, because that is kind of what society is about. But absolutely do not have respect the ideology or dogma of any religion.

In fact atheists spend such a lot of time tippy toeing around the precious sensiblilities of those who "believe.".who quite frankly, if they are so certain in there faith, have no real need of either our support or respect.

Maybe you have all experienced a mystical union with god (i'd call it a chemical imbalance) but the only rude posters on here iMO have been some of those with firm faith.

Can't wait for Scientology to open a faith school.

The only rude posters on here have been some of those with firm faith? Really?

Has anyone said that atheism is a "crock of shit" then? I hadn't noticed.

I may have missed them but I havnt seen any rude posts from those with faith. A lot of the people saying you should let him get on with it are admitting they dont have a faith themselves either.

Anyway - I have just seen on the news about a housing officer who decided to give a terminally ill woman religious advice that she nither asked for or wanted. THAT is CRAP and should not be tolerated. I would also say that if someone told a dying woman that she shouldnt believe in an afterlife, reincarnation or whatever.

When my daughter was dying I had to go shopping so went into ASDA. A very young man was serving me and noticed that I looked 'unhappy'. He kindly asked me why and TBH I told him. I said my little girl is dying, she only has a few days to live.

He then preceded to tell me how I shouldnt be sad and blah blah blardy blah better place, blardy blah it was meant to be blardy blah. He was all of 19.

THAT is wrong and CRAP.

People quietly going about their business and praying and meeting to worship what they belive in is not a crock or crap or bullshit. To name it so is rude, dimissive and disrepectful.

IF I choose to take comfort in my faith , if I choose to rage at God, if I choose to do these things without bringing pain or discomfort to anyone else what is the deal?

Sorry-if he has said that he doesn't want to do it then I would have a quiet word with the teacher. That is very different from his mother saying she doesn't want him to do it.

Ivykate-it is a church school; church schools go to church-if people don't like it then they shouldn't send them to a church school.

GM, you might not have actually said crock of shit, but you couldn't have made your contempt for those who do not share your religious beliefs clearer. Forgive me for not throwing myself on a pyre of shame at my audacity at questioning your, pretty indefensible beliefs.

OP, I think perhaps you are just being a bit over-conscientious. I have been employed by various churches for years singing religious texts while being openly agnostic at best (not to mention being an unmarried mother). Nobody cares. And some of the texts are inevitably "silly" on the face of it, being, say, 300 year old renderings of 2000 year old texts. But then so are many secular archaic texts to our modern eyes. There is a lot of theatre in the liturgy, and that is no bad thing. I don't think you need to get too hung up on whether your ds is committed to the literal truth of it in order to be involved.

Ohmigod! I went away when this thread was 6 pages and come back to 18!

sassy, you made a point pages ago which I was going to come back to - I know many atheists (in fact, most of my best friends are atheists! ) and they are all perfectly respectful of the idea that others do believe and have faith. I'm sorry if your experience has been otherwise.

How could I say to a Christain, "no, you don't believe" - it's a statement of faith not a statement of fact IYSWIM.

And I do agree with the poster who said that it does seem strange that so many Christians are up in arms about atheists teaching their children about the lack of a god when it's perfectly acceptable for Christians (or other faiths) to teach them there is a god.

Anyhoo, interesting debate - wish I had time to read the whole thing!

Interesting uses of the word 'respect'.

Salome apparently respects people who hold religious beliefs, but perhaps hasn't demonstrated that completely convincingly...

SGB respects people's right to hold religious beliefs, which I think is reconcilable with calling it all a load of crap.

OP - if your ds thinks it is a load of crap, then have a quiet word with the teacher I reckon, expecially if it will make you more comfortable.

chegirl - I think you are right - I don't see anybody of faith being rude either. It is definitely the non-believers who are name calling. Most of us with a faith wouldn't dream of calling those without names - doesn't seem to hold from the other side though.

Mind you SGB trots out the same old thing on every single thread about religion and it doesn't really inspire anybody to see the light and change their views so she does herself a disservice. It is very hard to respect the view of anybody who has to stoop to name calling to make the point.

Well I haven't read through the whole thread so apologies if someone else has said what i am going to say.
If you send your child to a C of E school and have such strong anti-christian views , shouldn't you have made the school aware of them from the outset to prevent this sort of dilemma ?

You have to remember that you are hearing our views here in a debate about religion. If a christian says to me "I'm going to the christmas service tonight" I don't say "it's all lies!" I say "oh that's nice. I hope you enjoy it".

In any discussion about religion itself I can not be expected to pretend to agree with those saying "of course god exists" etc.

If I did have to then we'd have free speech for the religous only and while I'm sure some religious people would love that it's not going to happen.

Of course, hopefor..., but if the op is considering withdrawing her ds from this activity because he doesn't believe in the words he is expected to read - when by far the easiest thing would be to let him get on with it - that surely is a conscientious act.

Niecie, sorry, you're wrong - there has been name calling on both sides. Nothing to be proud of, but don't let the Christians take the moral high ground please, and make out that it's those with no faith who also have no manners.

Tedious and untrue.

Where are all these raving mad Christians?

I must have missed all the fun because the ones I have met have tended to be on the mild side

Dont forget that being a Christian does not automatically make you believe in everything someone else is a Christian believes in (Huh? just confused my self with that grammer).

There are a lot of Anglicans that hold very dodgy views on Homosexuality, women in the church, poverty etc etc.

Dont mean I align myself with them.

The same I would imagine, a lot of atheiests would not align themselves with someone who thought all Christians were befuddled fools.

Sorry if I dont fit into the mould of the evangelical, bigoted, smug, comfortable God botherer. But then , I dont know anyone that does.

SGB is lost to the cause of any reasoned, constructive or inoffensive discussion.

Justaboutback, you agreed with her statement that "...it remains very, very important to be free to laugh at and despise all the superstitions and to say openly that they are all bullshit.."

Like you I too "truly believe that mutually respectful dialogue is to the benefit of both religious and non-religious people" but what I am wondering what it is about SGB's statement above is part of that respectful dialogue?

your child is at a CoE school. If your son wants to do it, let him.

I feel the fact that it can be difficult and in some cases impossible, to find a secular state school in reasonable distance of your home, brings the issue of religion up close and personal.

Of course I have no problem with what other people believe (- as long as it isnt hurting anyone else). I do have a problem if beliefs very different from my own are being presented as fact to my children. I imagine this is the same for a religious person.

I do not have any sympathy for the view that church schools are there for historical reasons and we atheists should just suck it up and get on with it.

If the school is funded by the state it should be secular. Of course all children in this country should learn ABOUT the different world religions but they should not, in a state school, be TAUGHT religious ideas as fact. Do that at home and in your own place of worship.

Contempt? Where?

Find one phrase or sentence of mine that demonstrates contempt for anyone on this thread. Go on. Enlighten me.

I am a christian, but I don't think that the OP is being unreasonable.

I wouldn't want my son to take part in a service of worship to allah or any other god. I would not be happy to hear him reading 'allah be praised' in a service. As an atheist I think she has every right to say that she doesn't want her son to take part in a worship service. However.....

I also think that maybe she should consider a different school. I understand it's hard to find a school that is secular in some areas, but if I lived in an area with only hindi schools we would commute or homeschool. Personally I would not send my child somewhere that included their religious beliefs in his education if I didn't agree with them.

As for all state schools being secular, that's a strong statement cathpot. Considering 72% of the UK call themselves christian (according to the BBC) and all pay tax, it's a bit harsh to demand that all schools should be secular.