to not allow my child to do a reading in church?

[GooseyLoosey]

Dh and I are atheists. The dcs attend the local school which is C of E (although wholly state funded). There are no alternative non-C of E schools locally.

The school tends towards being very religious and there is a special Easter service in church for the school this week. Ds (5) has been given a reading to do at this service. It includes many "Praise God" and "God is good" type statements.

I don't wish to over react but getting ds to actively participate in an act of worship may be a step too far for me. AIBU to object and to consider telling them to get someone else to do this?

Gooseloosey: I sypathise with your dilemma.

If your ds is not keen, why not turn around the onus back on to the school. Write them a note back saying that "as they are aware, yuo do not yourself beleive in God. While you are happy for your ds to be involved in the school's activities, you are not comfortable with him making statements that neither he nor you are confortable with. What added reasons can they supply for asking him to do this?"

If they come back and say that it is becasue it would imporve his confidence/he is respected by his classmates/has a lovely clear voice (or other somesuch reason) then you - and he - can make a judgement that isn't purely about the relgious aspect.

Even though ds (8) is at a non-deonminational school (in Scotland) in a very ethincally diverse area (the school roll is 60% ethnic minorities, majouirty Muslim but also includes Sikhs, Hindus, Russan Orthodox, Catholic....) he still comes out with comments about Jesus and God - to which we do the "some people beleive that but we don't happen to beleive..."

Interestingly, he is still coming out with these comments even though his teachers both this year and last were Muslim!

I think it is because we have gone from a position where it was only 'acceptable' to have one sort of belief, ie Christian, to a position where every belief is acceptable and in theory as valid as every other belief and that in consequence we are expected to treat with 'respect' even the most arrant nonsense (crystal healing, anyone); the trouble with any 'belief' is that by definition its holders believe it is true, and logically (even if they prefer not to accept the statement) that other people are mistaken/wrong/foolish/damned to the memory.

(Sorry, there should be more punctuation there I think!)

Not sure who was being rude and which bit you objected to GM so can't comment.

Tanith, look it up. The church moved christ's birthday to make it fit and because they had political power at the time they made people call it christmas. Everyone said "Who cares what we call it" and carried on eating, drinking and being merry just as before.

I don't mind that christians celebrate it. It's the christians saying that the rest of us should not.

I do not mean to imply that, MillyR - I don't think life is boring at all. It is rich and varied and wonderful and people's many different opinions and beliefs make it all the more so.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that the time you spent on developing your views on faith was a waste of time. It isn't a dead end to discover what you believe or don't believe in. I am sure that a great deal of personal development went into that and ultimately your conclusion has given you a certainty that a lot of people struggle to find.

Personally I believe that it is good thing that children are exposed to religion in some form or another and that they are encouraged to discuss and challenge it. Ultimately I want my DCs to come to their own conclusions and I most certainly don't want to give them "all the answers" (as if that was even possible).

But we digress ... !

Am flummoxed as to why you sent your DS to a C of E school when you're both atheists
YABVU to not allow him to do the reading if he wants to. It's part of life at the shcool you sent him to.

Oh, just SGB's usual torrent - "I sometimes wonder if the reason some superstitious people are so desperate to assert that fairies/flying casserole dishes/imaginary friends are really real is because they know, deep down, that it's a load of old cock but to admit that might be to harm their own privileged status".

My musing about whether atheists are insecure was in response to that.

Am amazed thread got this long before she started.

PMSL @ God's turkey

Well - I dont think YABU to ask for your child to be excused if you are a commited atheist. I would imagine many Muslim parents would and all JW would. They are your beliefs and you are entitled to bring your kids up in the way you see fit.

I am a Christian and want the freedom to bring my kids up beliving that God does exist and is not 'nonsense' as you so sweetly put it.

Respect should go both ways.

"Respect should go both ways"

Wish it did.

However, I have yet to meet a christian who respected my Atheism.

What do you mean by respect it though?

Do I believe you have the right to believe there is no God?
Of course I do.

Do I believe you have the right to tell other people you believe there is no God?
Yup.

Do I believe you have the right to tell people that there is no God?
OK.

Do I have to agree that you are right?

Nope, not going to either.

stillstanding "it is a belief system to believe that everything requires evidence or proof"

Er, no. No, it isn't. You can say you don't require evidence to believe stuff, and that's your prerogative, but that doesn't make it a "belief system" to require it.

Also bear in mind that, if you require no evidence to believe stuff, you have no criteria on which to base whether or not you believe anything - and so you could end up believing any old crock of shit.

Not read the whole thread, but if you are uncomfortable with it & he thinks it's silly then YANBU to politely request that someone else does it instead. The fact that it's a CofE school is irrelevent if there's no alternative.

Actually you have a right to withdraw your child from religeous observance at school - so why not tell the school that you don't mind him participating as an observer but not as an active participant for this & future religeous ceremonies?

Respect is about allowing others to believe what they think is right without belittling them.

I dont have a problem with someone not believing in God. Thats up to you. Dont lump me in with every Christian you have ever met who doesnt respect your beliefs.

Dismissing something as nonsense is disrespectful isnt it?

I really dont care if you dont want to belive what I believe. I am the least evangelical Christian you are ever likely to come across . Dont expect me to start quoting the bible at you or condeming you to a firery furnace. I dislike being preached to as much as you do I would imagine. But I dont like it when someone calls what I hold dear 'nonsense'. I dont think that is unreasonable.

For eg. I would never, ever tell my children that another family's faith or lack of it was a load of old tosh. I wouldn't dream of it. I would think it rude and who the hell am I to say what is right?

Also, requiring evidence is not the same as "thinking you have all the answers."

People who ask for scientific evidence are often cited as "thinking they have all the answers."

This is patently rubbish - it's exactly the opposite of what science does. But I suppose we should forgive people who believe this to be true. It demonstrates, after all, that our actual standpoint is so hard to argue with that they have to make up a fictitious one which is easier to denigrate.

Exactly. Religious beliefs are constantly being referred to as "nonsense" "a crock of shit" "a load of old cock" etc etc ad neuseam.

Is this respectful?

Well said, chegirl.
Am just musing here, but I wonder if most atheists are atheists because they genuinely believe there is no God. OR are most atheists atheists because it's convenient, because they can't be arsed to attend church. It's not an attack on atheists;my Dh is one. I am just wondering.

I've not read any of the other posts, just got to this thread!

I can't see any problem with your ds reading in church even if you are atheists. I am terrified at speaking in public, do you think an early experience like this will give him confidence?

I would explain to him that you are atheists, and what that means. However, (if this is how you feel) other people have different beliefs, and many of them will really appreciate his reading.

"are most atheists atheists because it's convenient, because they can't be arsed to attend church"

LOLOL at this idea! I didn't know it was compulsory to attend church even if you believed in God!

Your stand point isn't hard to argue with at all UQD. We've had this discussion before.

You refuse to believe in the existence of a deity without scientific evidence. There isn't any scientific evidence but believers still believe. That's all there is to it really.

SarahL2, obviously I have no idea what circles you move in but (assuming that you and I have the same ideas on what respect means) must admit that I am shocked that you have yet to meet a christian who does not respect your atheism.

In my RL experience, both social, on MN and generally (although obviously not always) in the media etc, christians are usually bending over backwards to accommodate others. They practically apologise for their religion.

In the discussions I have about religion with friends etc it is the christians and not the atheists who are continually challenged. I am pleased to say that in my RL experience I have never heard any of this "imaginery friend", "superstitious" crap that you get on MN but it is certainly the christians who are taking more flak, if you like, than the atheists.

Obviously I can see that if you lived in a very religious part of the world the reverse would be true but I am surprised to hear that you haven't met a christian in modern day Britain tolerant and respectful of your beliefs even if he/she doesn't agree with them.

I know full well that there isn't any scientific evidence but believers still believe. It's not a situation I'd be comfortable living in. There are no boundaries for demarcation of what one believes and doesn't believe. It all comes down to "ooh, that seems nice, I'll have that" and "nah, I don't like that bit, I'll say that's made up."

Who said that quote above about atheists being atheists because they can't be bothered to attend church? That is hilarious. It's just beyond stupid.

Of course it's not compulsory to believe and go to church but I often think people describe themselves as atheists without really knowing what it means. It's just easy.

Christians take more flak than atheists? Hmm. In my experience, we atheists bite our tongues an awful lot more than we exercise them.

The amount of offence atheists take is really, really small when compared with the extent to which religion is allowed to go unquestioned.

Sometimes it is simply too much trouble and (as shown by the continual arguments) people simply don't get it. So atheists are often just inclined to "let it go". This can give the impression that we have less to worry about than we actually do.

I don't need to look it up, Onegar: my best friend is a Pagan and, as a childminder, I cover many of the major religious festivals.

Many religions have festivals around the same time, but even the Christian festivals don't fall exactly on the same dates as the Pagan ones.

Yule is still celebrated by Pagans, but it's not celebrated on Christmas Day. It co-incides with Winter Solstace on 21st December.
Easter is similar, being timed according to the Christian calendar, not the Pagan one.

Gateau, I think many people describe themselves as Christian because a set of morals and beliefs taken 'off the shelf' is easier than examining the evidence and thinking for themselves (But I wouldn't say that because it's a bit rude really)