To not believe Hans Fritzel's wife could not 'know' that her husband was imprisoning a whole family in the bloody cellar??

[mimimilk]

Sorry, I am willing to stand corrected on this and do not claim to have in depth knowledge of the case, but FFS, he kept a whole family of human beings locked in a cellar for over 20 years, and his wife and other kids really had no idea at all?? I find it beyond belief.

boffinmum denial do you think or self preservation?

but I wonder how he became like that?

Nature/nurture?

Or related to the chap I mentioned?

I suppose nature/nurture. Personally I don't believe it can be all nature although probably a combination. I imagine there's a very disturbed past there and I do wonder what happens to sombody's mind when they are capable of things like this. He knew it wouldn't have been thought of as ok as he hid them.

Regarding his wife. I would imagine she also has a disturbed history.

I think there's a gap between knowing other people won't approve and knowing it's wrong. Knowing it's wrong hopefully means you don't do it, knowing that others may not approve means you hide it.

"It just goes to show how far feminism has to go when women look for a woman to blame when a man has committed the most unimaginably horrendous crimes against his own daughter and her children"

absolutely - I totally agree. Like ra29needsabettername says I am sure Josef Fritzl's wife's life has not been easy or pleasant considering what we know about his behaviour.

Tattifer, good question. I think denial, as in holocaust psychological denial type thing. This is a conversation I recall having had with my German grandfather about ten years before he died, which may throw some light onto it all.

---

BoffinMum to grandfather, Jeremy Paxman style: 'Cmon, are you telling me that they killed 12 million people practically under your noses, and you suspected nothing?

Grandfather to BoffinMum: We really didn't. We knew bad things were going on, but these were very unsettled, highly politicised times, and things were not always clear. But the fact that something as extreme as that could happen just didn't occur to us. You have to remember that it was war and people were moving away all the time, so when people disappeared we just assumed they had gone to stay somewhere safer. We were more concerned with staying out of the way of the Nazis so they didn't take our jobs away or arrest or attack us, and wriggling out of Party membership, which was hard as they took over all the sports clubs and everything.

---

So applying this logic to Frau Fritzl, I imagine in an abusive and manipulative relationship, it was more natural for her to suspend disbelief and just try to survive day by day, rather than entertain the apparently bizarre notion that her husband was keeping an incestuous family in the basement of their house. There's a funny sort of logic to it.

boffinmum you're right, a bizarre logic. Thanks for the story of you grandfather. I'm sure as well that culturally the knowledge that turning a blind eye aids survival has not even begun to fade.

Are we asking the same question of their neighbours?

Oh Tattifer, I believe you mean that person.

I would not be at all surprised to find he shared a common ancestor with Hans Fritzel.

I heard on the radio that his (Hans Fritzel- not that man!) defence lawyer was stating that he 'needed to have power over women'. As if that could possibly be a defence!?

It does seem crazy that she knew absolutely nothing about the grim goings on, but I can quite believe she was in denial/too scared/etc to do anything at all or even question his behaviour.

The human mind is a very weird and complicated and bizarrely very efficient at coming up with coping mechanisms, denial just being the tip of the iceberg.

SofT I swear I don't know where you get that (would put that in italics for visual pun but a, don't want to appear flippant and 2, cannot be a*ed) idea from

I read that there were 8 different doors separating the cellar from the house - which indicates how distant and also sound proof the cellar must have been. This would explain why noone ever heard anything. Allegedly.

Sorry-OT

BUT:

Just general evidence!

And I am thinking of changing my name here, a name that gets abrieviated to SofT would make me imagine a rather rotund individual. :s

Changed

so you have

Yes Dittany, people can say anything thgey l;ike about women(and anyone else) in a libreal democracy. It ?s ?a-ok?. That?s what liberal democracy is about. Would you prefer it to be otherwise?

Violence per se arises from humans, violence against men too, which is rife! Humans are compatitive animals and not all of that competivlness is misogyny. It helps to be able to distingush between the two and also of just general misanthropy. I really cannot agree that women are blamed or dehimanised endemically in western culture. Feminism has made a lot of progress actually, and todays generation of women on the whole do not identify with the language of victimhood. But I?m not going to get into another reactionary kick about with you. You are too easy to offend. The right to offend is part of free speech however, it isn?t a crime - yet ? though I sometimes get the feeling you would ratify it as one if you could.

Tattifer, can you post a link to that piece or post the essay ? I cannot view it online without subscribing to NI. I am interested in seeing this ?gentle taster of a different perspective?. I have a recommendation for you too. Let me know what you think when you?ve finished it. www.amazon.co.uk/Caged-Virgin-Muslim-Womans-Reason/dp/1416526234 But also, (for you and FAQ) I never said misogyny was ?the driving force? of anything. I made no terminal statements of any kind actually. I responded to something Dittany said (which was probably a mistake, as it only leads down one path) not post a whole thesis on the subject.

Post a link to that article please Tattifer.

FAQ, can you also share your sources on FGM.

Rather than hijack this thread actually, shall we do the polite thing and take this elsewhere? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/other_subjects/725788-FGM?rnd=1237676386322