To not believe Hans Fritzel's wife could not 'know' that her husband was imprisoning a whole family in the bloody cellar??

[mimimilk]

Sorry, I am willing to stand corrected on this and do not claim to have in depth knowledge of the case, but FFS, he kept a whole family of human beings locked in a cellar for over 20 years, and his wife and other kids really had no idea at all?? I find it beyond belief.

dittany irony?
and just a note, to even begin to think that there is one form female circumcision and one alone sounds either deliberatley misleading or inadequately informed.

Have you looked at NI yet?

Actually dittany you've over simplified again, black african were enslaving black african before the simple white folk knew africa existed....

Not so funny at all I expect, and not surprising.

in most parts of Africa they mistakenly believe it promotes cleanliness (in the same way they believe that male circumcision promtoes cleanliness). Some areas it's believed that the foreskin is "female" and the clitoris "male" parts of the body and remove for that reason.

Yes there are a few groups who do it to try and prevent "self abuse" - or what we would know as the pleasurable activity of masturbation, or for aesthetic reasons, but originally it was for the above mention reasons.

The biggest barriers to ending FGM have been cultural and, in some cases, religion.

a) this is a whole 'nuther thread

and b) do you understand the difference between argument and discussion and debate?

and 3) I wasn't talking about racism. I thought you're refusal to accept cultural prerogatives was inherently racist and wished to steer clear of your subject change.

who has been defending FGM????

Faq no idea, if they're still we could throw rotten fruit at them - that's a traditional english version of stoning I understand

As for the rest, I'm thinking Plato, and I'm concerned (sarah beany style voice) over dittany's potentially patronising use of "barbaric".

still here

that's what i meant to type, not that i'm the one still here, ovbiously.

oh I thought you meant if the're standing still - so we could get a better shot at them

Having lived in Austria, I fully believe that it is possible for her to have know nothing.

Men are to be respected. She likely lived in fear of him. Under no circumstances could she possibly dream up such a wicked ploy. Any doubts would have been cast aside by his explanations.
I'm sure he handled the finances as well.

Good point Faq! I'm all for bringing back the stocks - mostly for my own children... and in case i'm taken seriously.

dittany language dear.

I have a job that gets just as gritty and real as you'd care to mention. When on a discussion forum I tend to leave the shining but realistically dented armour outside on the decking next to the hot tub.

"It just goes to show how far feminism has to go when women look for a woman to blame"

ok dittany - show me where, on this thread, or any other on the case, I have blamed the wife for not knowing, or indicated that she could have known about it and done nothing???

and if you're read my post (which obviously you haven't) while I don't deny that in some cases it's a male "preference" in most cases it has been traditionally done for cleanness (albeit very misguided judgements about how that cleanness can be achieved)

and further believed by many (presumably hornswoggled unliberated barbaric women) to be beautiful.

no, not supporting, just adding to the discussion...

Back on track though for a second, Herbeatitudelittlebella said it - never underestimate the power of denial.

indeed forward UK lists the following "common" reasons for FGM

Reasons include:

1. custom and tradition
2. religion; in the mistaken belief that it is a religious requirement
3. preservation of virginity/chastity
4. social acceptance, especially for marriage
5. hygiene and cleanliness
6. increasing sexual pleasure for the male
7. family honour
8. a sense of belonging to the group and conversely the fear of social exclusion
9. enhancing fertility

And they don't see it purely as a misogynistic practice - and given that their main aim is to promote the rights of girls and woman in African cultures (both in African and around the world) I do sort of trust what they say,

I wonder why he did it? I mean realy why, what happened to him, what makes sombody lose all cultural moral norms and boundaries?
So horrifically sad...

ra29 I know one person (unfortunately I mean know him personally, not simply about him) who is genuinely unaware of the differences between right and wrong. He is pathologically incapable of understanding the difference, it's implications, or consequences. The normal why? doesn't apply to someone like that.

Faq I don't think litany is/was listening

Perhaps a new thread beckons - one for the telegraph to chatter about?

Can I just backtrack away from FGM for a moment, and mention something about buildings in Southern Germany and Austria??

I think it would be perfectly possible to have a great chunk of cellar that was well away from the main house and relatively self-contained and quiet. Because of the geology over there, cellars are designed very differently from here, and are a lot more substantial most of the time, with many rooms. Typically you would have a laundry room down there and some sort of major larder at the very least, and sometimes there might be an extra bedroom or bathroom, and even possibly a sauna or cellar bar/games room for teenagers or entertaining friends, even in a relatively normal middle class house. In my grandfather's house, I found a room off the back of the cellar that had been there the whole time and which I had previously had no idea of, even though I had probably been going there for decades. So that bit I understand.

What I don't get is three children being aapparently deposited on the doorstep and the mother not asking questions or trying to find out where they had come from, even secretly. One I can understand, but three???