To not believe Hans Fritzel's wife could not 'know' that her husband was imprisoning a whole family in the bloody cellar??

[mimimilk]

Sorry, I am willing to stand corrected on this and do not claim to have in depth knowledge of the case, but FFS, he kept a whole family of human beings locked in a cellar for over 20 years, and his wife and other kids really had no idea at all?? I find it beyond belief.

DH bought the times today for some reason and I thoroughly didn't enjoy it.

That's by the by - the thing is there was a whole piece in it basically saying what the OP is asking - how could the mother not have suspected?

I remarked on reading it that it was odd that, having got a person wholly responsible for this appalling crime they seem to be desperate to hang some of the blame for it on someone else - her mum. Why? Because that would make it more interesting? Because we could hate her better than we could hate him and that would be more satisfying? I really can't understand it.

Why didn't she ask any questions? Well, I imagine she was absolutely scared shitless of him. Why didn't she have any suspicions? He was obviously a skilled accomplished and successful liar. He managed to talk SS and all sorts round. I really don't find it hard to belive that she had no idea. She knew he was violent and may have suspected abuse - the daughter had run away before - why not believe that she had run away again? And maybe be pleased for her...

If your dd ran away and then brought each of their babies back and left them on your doorstep would you not think she must be nearby and appeal for information

the fact she didnt make any effort says to me that she knew more than she let on

why would you suspect though? Seriously why? Even if you thought something dodgy was going on in the cellar no normal person would suspect that the husband was keeping your daughter and three kids down there?

Let's face it, men abuse their own children under their own roof and the mothers are oblivious. But elizabeth had disappeared to join a cult. The mother had no reason to believe otherwise.

And how do we know she didn't search for her? She may have searched, but she wouldn't have found anything.

We are assuming she must have known based on what we know about the case. But if you'd never heard of the case before you would have no reason to suspect that someone going in and out of a cellar had a secret family down there. Tbh if I was a neighbour I'd be more inclined to think he was renting it to illegal imigrants or similar.

Look at what went on at Fred West's house. yet the neighbours didn't know?

Imo it's not denial. It's just so far from the relms of normality that it wouldn't raise suspicion.

quattro yes what I read today was tabloid style.

The other things I have read have said that mother and daughter have been reunited with no suggestion of the kind of dislike/distance I read about today in the times.

It read to me as if they are desperate to apportion some blame to the mother, no idea why they would want to do that.

Apparently he was a convicted rapist, way before imprisoning his daughter, and the wife still stayed with him. That speaks volumes imo

I do worry about the idea that this thread is distasteful. Isn't 'hiding' and refusing to discuss such issues what helps things (and by things I mean a huge range of issues, not just this case) go unchallenged - all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing...

God, the whole thing is beyond imagination.... giving birth with no help to twins

I cannot think that the mother knew anything at all.

But the thing is I would suspect something very wrong was going on, if

My Dp had a cellar which i was 'forbidden' to go into- I would wait until he was out/at work and make it my damn business to find out what he was hiding!

If my DD (DS in my case) disappeared one day, even if she had gone before. i would do everything in my power to find her, and if her babies were turning up 'on the doorstep' then i think i would probably go to the police and ask them to investigate.

Yes he was obviously a deeply disturbed (note to self not to use the E word!) an accomplished liar and yes may have been abusing his wife, but she was after all a grown adult who surely must have had some questions in her mind.

I just cannot fathom it.

I think the reason why is because she hasn't spoken out. She has disappeared without so much as a word to the press. So they print all this sort of speculation perhaps for a response?

Imagine what the tabloids must have been thinking when elizabeth and her children were found. "interviews with the wife, interviews with the daughtrs," etc etc, and nothing came.

And because the wife isn't begging them to pay her for her story they assume she must have been in on it all. Because perhaps if they print wild speculation she will give the nice exclusive interview to the one that shouts the loudes...

Rather than blaming the wife (who knows what on earth was going on there), I think some searching questions should be asked of Austrian social services. THREE babies turn up, one after the other, apparently dumped on the doorstep by a daughter who has run away, and no-one raises an eyebrow?

Also saw somewhere that SS had brought her back when she ran away on a previous occasion - didn't bother speaking to her and finding out why, only spoke to her father.

Slayerette, yes, while good men do nothing, i second that....

I think the context for the Times writer saying what about Rosemarie is the fact that there isn't going to be any enquiry about any aspect of how this didn't get noticed - there seem to have been several opportunities missed. Why was Elisabeth made to return to her father after running away, why did social workers not notice anything when they visited? Apparently there were even electrical checks that were supposed to have been done to the cellar wiring which weren't done.

x-posted with Edam

The thing is I don't think that anyone who hasn't experienced being in an abusive realtionship for this number of years can imagine what it does to you.

I haven't either.

But I do know that people on here in relationships which look like nothing compared to how this man treated his family talk about a total loss of self esteem, being unable to act independently, being unable to think independently through fear.

Yes if DH built a building in the back yard and said I wasn't allowed in I would go and look. But he hasn't been an absolute unforgiving violent tyrant in my life for decades. I am not totally submissive to him. He does not expect that behaviour and beat me regularly. How can any of us know unless we have been in her shoes?

I am also impressed with the way the case was heard so quickly and in private. The papers (all of them) seem to have taken umbrage at this as they obviously were hoping that they would have the gory details coming out over the next few months. I really don't think we need any more detail than what we have already heard - and seen.

Agree with wannabe that maybe this is press reaction to all this. The story hasn't been nearly as long lasting or juicy as they had hoped - and so they are looking around for something else to go on about.

It makes me ill to think that there must be hordes of people, mainly press, trying to track this family down and papp them.

I think I heard somewhere on the TV news report that Fritzl is believed to have also locked up his mother, but in the attic not his cellar. He got married (in 1956??) and she moved into the attic of his house. He blocked up the windows of the attic to stop her having any light. Then she disappears from public records until her death about 20 years later. It was his punishment to her for making his childhood unhappy. I only half caught the report but this is what I think I heard and the way it was stated was as if he'd admitted this. If true then it seems impossible to believe that the wife didn't notice that the MIL in the attic had suddenly become very quiet.

I might have imagined all this but I am sure i heard it on sky news or similar on Monday.

I wasn't dreaming it. Here's an old link to the story.
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/31/joseffritzl-austria
QUOTE

Josef Fritzl, the Austrian accused of raping and imprisoning his daughter, kept his ailing mother locked in an attic room with bricked-up windows until her death, according to leaked court reports.

The Austrian newspapers Kronen Zeitung and Österreich have published accounts of Fritzl's interviews with a forensic psychiatrist in which he says he incarcerated his mother - who he blames for his actions - in the attic of her own house shortly before he locked up his daughter.

The retired engineer and property developer said it was revenge for the abuse he claims she inflicted upon him.

Fritzl's mother died in 1980. By then, Fritzl had begun building the concrete dungeon that would imprison his daughter, Elisabeth.

UNQUOTE

So if his wife knew about that one and then suddenly her daughter goes missing, wouldn't anyone at least wonder if the daughter had met a similar fate?

Good post Jazzhands

I think if you know women who have been "institutionalised" as it were by their abusers, you have less difficulty in believing this woman knew nothing.

I know someone who has spent 50 years being bullied by her husband. She is now simply helpless without him - needs him to make all her decisions for her, can't do anything without seeking his approval, anticipates what he wants so he doesn't have to tell her... the idea that she would question or challenge anything he did, is just unthinkable. He controls her. God knows what will happen if he dies first, she'll be lost without him to tell her what to do.

YEs it's amazing isn't it - forget Josef Fritzl, cherchez la femme

It is awful for everyone in the family, she probably knew, even if she conciously denied it, she was probably also sadistically bullied and was terrified. Im sure she has a life sentance of her own just knowing what happened and her own even unconcious involvment in it.

It is amazing - the papers are trying to whip this up - I'm sure because the actual story didn't live up to their expectations.

So depressing. Man beats wife and children, makes their lives hell, locks daughter in cellar and inflicts unimaginable suffering on her and her children.

Who shall we blame? Well his mum is the obvious choice - he blames her - but unfortunately she's dead - how about we blame the wife?

Why can't we just blame the man sho did all this?

aren't you all missing the point? Everyone knows and agrees that he is guilty. Is currently being punished. is evil personified etc. But the question is did the wife know? Maybe she did and was scared, maybe she didn't at all. But its not a debate about whether a female culprit should be found at all costs.

quinne, good point about his poor mother. I had also read some time ago about her enduring 20 odd years in a bricked up attic, being subjected to god knows what by her own son. To me this is a strong indicator that Rosemarie must have known about Elisabeth. You don't have your MIL locked up above you for 20 years and not know about it. And if your daughter goes missing and starts handing back babies from a cult, you go to the ends of the earth to find her or harrass the police until they do. Plenty of women stand up to abusers.