To be sick of reading on MN that you are a "good role model" to your dd if you go back to work??

[ssd]

have read this over various posts on MN over the years

usually posters give various reasons to return to work, all viable and good, but then the poster throws in the "good role model" shite

why always harp back to this?

if you love your kids, teach them to respect and care for others, learn manners and discipline THEN you are a good role model

most of us eventually will return to work at some stage and if we don't we will still be good role models unless we are lying about the house taking drugs and leaving the kids to go feral, which I;m sure not too many of us do!

I know I'll get slated on here as the going back to work to be a good role model line seems to be very poplular round here and I'm not trying to wind up posters who use it, it just seems to me people work out of necessity, not to be a role model

And BTW where's all the role models for ds's??? or is just loving them enough?

Penth - I agree that there is no point simply acting like men, or a simplfied version of what men are like anyway.
But to move forward I do think women haveno alternative but to put themselves forward for positions of power and influence. To show, by their actions, that women are as capable.

A mate of mine works for the UN. By her age most women are no longer 'in the field' but have taken desk jobs in NY or Geneva. She is still trooping about in Afganistan, Iraq, Somalia, Colombia etc. I suspect that by her actions she has done more for women on the ground in developing nations that any number of policies.

Perhaps I've got this all wrong and I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I just feel that if I want my own daughter to have proper choices then I have to walk the walk. Does that make sense?

I think children need to see you working. In or out of the home. That is a good role model. They can see you preparing to go to work, possibly smartly and professionally attired, punctual and directed. When they go to school I think they take in the same concept of preparing for a day's work, punctuality, directing oneself to a task, and a group of people. So that is one aspect, which can be provided by father or mother or both (be it SAHM or WOHM) - getting dressed, getting ready, getting out of the house and settling down to a task.
When you are a SAHM, which I am, you can provide the same good example of working hard, having interests, focusing on projects, showing care for others (not just dcs and dh). It is just that no-one pays you directly. (You might save money of course, but that is not perceived to count)
I hope I set a good example by enjoying my life, having time to do all the things that interest me, rather than just earning for the sake of it. I think it is a challenge being a SAHM and staying focused. I still don't have enough time to do all the things I want to do and need to do, although dcs are at school till 3.00 because I have taken a voluntary position in school. I think dcs are impressed by me "helping" outside home, I think it makes them feel proud. But I don't think my absence for longer periods just for the sake of their "self-respect" would be worth it.

Perfect sense.

Your friend sounds amazing.

I too do not have all the answers. Far from it!! Who does? I would be suspicious indeed if one person thought they'd cracked it!

But alongside women being brave and getting out there, etc., we also MUST rethink, and not be afraid to rethink, and talk about rethinking - to force men and women to confront the structural realities of the situation, and try to change them.

Ok - I've got to go now, but will check in later.

lol, squilly

Final thought!

BUT it is also true that women (and men!) ought not to be criticised for staying at home, if that is what they choose, or accused of letting the side down. Arguing amongst ourselves is what lets the side down. All the time we waste fighting ourselves, when we could be fighting the system!

I think I heart Penthesileia. What a fab final thought.

lol Squilly.

(psst, actually, it's women who rule the world - the men squbble amongth themseelves to get us, work themselves to death, die young trying to impress us in their fast cars and gangs, or just from stress - a man's world indeed![gein])

In the end, it is how the mother sees herself which will affect the children's modelling. If they see mum downtrodden, bedraggled gloomy, not surprisingly that is not a very good role model for any little girl or boy. If they see me fractious,overworked and with no time for them ,that is also not a good role model. If Dad and Mum were at home all day doing nothing useful I think it would be obviously be a bad model. Even Enid Blyton has descriptions of bad mothers and fathers who sit at home eating SHOPmade cake and reading magazines, and don't get up in the morning to go to work.

Freedom of choice ... isn't that what is important for all. To insist that all women (or men) work despite their own individual situation is as damaging as women being forced to give up their careers once they get married/have children.

Economic independence and freedom of choice ... that's what I would like for my DDs regardless of what they choose to do in their lives. But I really hope that by the time they are at the child-bearing stage in their lives, women are more accepting of each other's personal choices and not as judgmental as we still appear to be today.

or should that be [gurn]

GLaDOS....you post so sensible...I wish I was cleverer you know? I like the fast cars, gangs and stress thing. They are impressive aren't they???

Pushchairs and buggies and toddler and baby clubs just don't do it in the same way do they??

And when will we women learn to be bit more aggressive? oh...wait, I think maybe some of us have

LOL...gurn....

The problem is not whether someone stays at home to care for the children, or whether they go out to work to earn a necessary wage - but that society still expects the person at home to be predominantly a woman, and the person at work to be a man. This makes life much harder for those who are "different" from the norm - ie the woman at work in a professional role, and a man at home caring for the children.

Parenting is the responsibility of both parents, and each family unit should manage their lives so that they have the balance that works for them. Most workplaces still seem to work on the basis that employees don't have to deal with family concerns - because most senior managers tend to be men with wives at home who look after the children/domestic side of things or did while their children were growing up, and so they don't really understand the problems their employees face.

As more women have come into the workplace, more men are being expected to pull their weight with respect to children - school runs, doing housework etc. Hopefully as these men rise in their organisations we will see a gradual change in approach - and in some industries this is already happening.

I and my husband both work for the same large IT company. We both work "flexibly", which means one of us is usually at home, and can put on a load of the washing, drop and pick up children from school/childcare, and are around when older children come home from school. I work compressed hours (33 hours over 3 full days and 2 half days), so I can have more time with our toddler. But if I have a meeting I want to go to on one of my non-working half days, then my DH will take the time off to care for him. Although I am now "part-time" I have received promotion, and retain parity with my DH on pay and level, and still expect to have a career.

The downsides to a more flexible day, are that we often both have to work in the evening when children are in bed.

Sadly it is true that SAHMs do slow the progress of working women, as unless we have a SAHD to support us, we cannot compete on equal terms. However, life is not fair, and if I wanted to be a SAHM then I wouldn't not do it because it would make life harder for a working mum! At the end of the day we all do what is best for our families, and the key message for our children is that it is important to have the choice - whether they be boys or girls!

Back to walking the walk, don't you think that the first step is to give your dd confidence that she is loved and cherished. Just being there from beginning. I don't think a mother can model anything for a baby or a toddler except being there for quite a lot of the time, not all of the time necessarily, but a large part of its waking hours.
As it is, my dd doesn't feel as if she doesn't get enough of my attention, with two brothers close in age. I don't see why she would be better adjusted and more directed if I had even less time to spend reading, playing and talking to her.

God, it's dangerous when you get dragged into a thread!

Cosette: No, no, no, no, no! It is NOT true that SAHMs slow the progress of working women. That is too simplistic and unkind.

The system itself is to blame. If we did not operate such a patriarchal, male-oriented workplace, women's progress would not be hindered. It is not the "fault" of SAHMs.

That is the gender equivalent, Cosette, of blaming ethnic minorities, etc., for not "getting out there".

It is the structural inequalities and hidden obstacles which impede the progress of women in the workplace.

hahaha ..

jack99 sorry didn't mean to cause offense, my post was really in reaction to xenia's pathetic ideas about what it means to be a woman and what value she considers woman to have in society.

I am not saying that being a sahm is better than working. BUT I am angry with people like xenia who seem to think any woman who CHOOSES to stay at home is somehow letting the side down because she considers looking after your home and children less of a role than being a career woman.

Agree with you Penthesileia. I was just about to post the same but you said it much better. The equal terms that Cosette says we have to compete on are what is inherently at fault.

I agree with Cosette's earlier point that this "playing field" will hopefully start to shift as more of the men in the workforce play a more active role in their DC's lives and therefore have more of an understanding of the need for flexibility for both men and women.

Swanriver - I haven't read anything on here that suggests people think a child would be less adjusted by you reading, playing and talking to him less. But at the same time, please don't judge those of us whose children do go to nursery for some or all of the working week and accept that they will also be gaining from that experience at the same time.

Yes, we are not 'letting any side down'.

In my opinion lies in the fact that women aren't valued enough. We are allowed to be different from men. The perpetuation of the human race requires women.

The penalties and sacrafices of parenthood shouldn't be all on the shoulders of women. That is the issue to address.

Taking a few months off to have a baby shouldn't be categorised as weakness or letting down the side.

It is NOT the same as skiving off to have your hair highlighted or something.

I'm not looking for a medal for having had my children, but it'd be nice to know that I wasn't going to be penalised for it either.

Society needs babies, society needs people. The perpetuation of the species shouldn't be brushed under the carpet as though it were some sort of hideously embarrassing weakness to the few women in the privileged position of being unaffected by all the usual issues )childcare, earning potential etc).

Penthesileia - fair point - I do agree it's the system at fault and not the fault of SAHMs. Maybe that's why the SAHM and WOHM debate gets so intense, as it is very easy to slip into it being the fault of a person rather than the system! I stand corrected .

swan river - my own daughter is now older. She needs much more than stories and play dough. I see her finding her place and way in this world.
I don't really care what she does in life but since she won't have a private income and i hope to goodness she doesn't end up on benefits, the one thing she will have to do is work.
So I do want to walk the walk and show her that work can be very rewarding and that women can do whatever men can do.
I feel that I can only say that to her if I do it myself with any degree of integrity.
That's just how I feel.

Oh and for the poster that thinks women have the power in our society, the rape figures cam eout recently. 47,000 reported in the UK last year. 6.5% CONVICTION RATE. Yep, it sure is a woman's world.

Exactly. By demonising those things that are essentially feminine (i.e. giving birth, caring for the children, etc), it results in women potentially getting the worst of all worlds: you have the babies, rush back into full time work, juggle juggle juggle, never feel like you're doing ANYTHING to the best of your abilities?

I go back to my earlier comment about choice.

I have chosen to work part time. I work from home and am able to do the school runs for DD1 and fairly easily accommodate school holidays. DD2 goes to nursery 3 days a week. I could have chosen to work full time but I didn't. I could have chosen to be a SAHM but I didn't. I appreciate the fact I have this choice and don't judge any mother who makes a different choice to me. In the same way, I don't expect to be judged.

Litchik, my daughter is older (just 7) and I mistyped earlier post, she feels she DOESN'T get enough attention at the moment. I quite agree that she needs more than playdough, but she does still need me to give her TIME, and just be generally around.

Both my mother and grandmother were fantastic role models in the technical sense but managed to make some of their (many) dcs feel a bit unloved, unconfident, so I suppose I'm just compensating for that in my family history. Ironically if my mother had been less busy busy busy on all her projects I wouldn't have reacted so violently and felt my role was to nurture dcs so exclusively. I'm sure working mothers are able to cherish and nourish dcs just as well as sahm, (I'm surrounded by numerous examples) it's just that I wouldn't manage it. However, I am aware that as my dcs get older I need to set an example of productivity be it paid or unpaid.

I think there is more to it than sociatal expectations Cosette. Most women chose to stay at home with their infants. That choice is not the problem, what's exploited is that women do it for free in a world where everthing has a price. Some people (and we're all pretty materialistic these days) then make the incorrect assumtion that that work is menial because it doesn't come with a salery, cash bonuses or paid holidays. The actual fact is it is the most precious work and its women that do it best, on average.