AIBU to be sad and shocked by this article?

[LittleDorrit]

Have just been reading this:

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/mar/18/child-poverty-labour-eradicate-promise

and I am shocked by the conditions this family is living in, but in particular how little/what sort of food they are able to afford.

It's not so much an AIBU issue, but just wondered whether others in similarly difficult circumstances think this is typical, or whether the mother could try to buy other types of food (e.g. rice, lentils, etc.) or perhaps be able to afford to spend a bigger proportion of her budget on food... £20 is very little.

that still does not explain how you would know that i was educated in barbados.

everything that i know about benefits and entitlements i found out myself, i know that you are disagreeing with some of the things that i know but i still found it all out on my own - without a home computer or internet- using the library and other resource centres.

I am aware of the stats and facts and figures about the current climate, thanx.

But how do you know that i was educated in Barbados?? at no time did i announce that, unless you have been doing a search on me, but how would you do that based on my nick?

well it's not hard - you lived there for 15yrs - you're 20 (21?) - you must have gone to school there

I presume at the library you used the internet? (well if it was my local library you wouldn't find anything out without using the computers as there's sod all there - I don't even bother using it for books for the DS's as the selection is so bad )

Therefore you knew how to use a computer. Louise is doing a computing course - generally that means she didn't previously know how to use one - which would rather make getting online and finding out information a little harder

I never said any of that on here and dont even have a public profile so i am a little baffled as to how you know so much about me. i was only in Barbados for 10 years sorry, and as you know there is no benefit system there so i was totally unaware of any of this help until i arrived in the UK in you probably know already - 2005 - and only needed to use it from 2008. So if you could explain how you know so much about me??

I searched for your nickname on here to find a post you'd done on this thread earlier (it's rather long thread and I use pages so wanted to see what time it was made at to go back through the pages easier), it brought up all the threads you'd posted on and as I scrolled down to find the one I was looking for I noticed you'd said on a previous thread that you'd lived in Barbados for 15yrs

very clever
but i can see that we both have a different view on this and we will have to agree to disagree.

• yes very clever - and not at all sinister - honest

(don't try it with mine - you'll find 1000's of very boring posts detailing my slatternly housing keeping ).

yes I think we shall have to agree to disagree - and if we live anywhere close to each other - who knows in a few years time when we're both qualified we may end up meeting in our professional lifes given we're both looking at a similar route

I would have never used the word sinister, you are opinionated as am I.

Continue to argue in favour of those that are unable or unaware how to do it for themselves, it is a requirement of working in the health care profession.

good luck with your studies and all the best.

I sure am opinionated - doubt many on MN would argue with that

Hopefully will indeed stand me in good stead in work in future.

Thanks - you too

and now I must sleep - I was going to go to bed at 12............now I think it'll be the sofa (again) otherwise I'll never get up to get the DS's to school on time LOL.

Dam it why have the most interesting threads always got so long before I get to them? I have no time to read all of this and don't really want to contribute without reading everyone else's opinions as I'll probably just be repeating what's already been said.

It sounds pretty grim, but real poverty to me is living under a piece of cloth by the roadside in Cambodia with your family of four and surviving on 20p a day.

The woman in the article sounds like she's doing the best for her children though.

I think everyone responds differently to the same circs- emzi you are clearly very clued up and have a good level of intelligence and resourcefulness, but the woman in the article is clearly struggling. Long term I imagine that emzi and her children will do better than "louise" and hers, because emzi has more to offer and teach than "louise". That is what I meant earlier by social capital. IMO social capital is one of the biggest determining factors in the mobility of a family, and is to a large degree determined by how many little grey cells you have to start with. Some families make it from rags to riches in three generations, others stay stuck in a never-ending cycle of poverty that can't be entirely blamed on chance.

thinking about this thread last night I wonder how much people are focusing on the mother to avoid the really difficult issue. There are children to think about here - children who didn't ask to be born and who will not get the same life chances as your children (or mine).

The mother feels her daughter is bright - and she may well be. But she'll go to a school where the teachers expect nothing from her or for her and the mother has little education herself to try and do anything at home. The child's health will suffer from a poor diet.

Blaming the mother for being less than perfect is a convenient way to avoid feeling guilt about those children!

I think she is probably coping with her circumstances the best she can. I don't think there are many mothers out there who don't. Her best is not enough to lift the family out of grinding poverty though, and to my mind she needs a lot of proactive help now to avoid her children being massively disadvantaged in the long-term. Help of that kind is hard to give to someone who is doing their best though, as it is almost inevitably undermining. I do wonder if a SureStart buddy (maybe someone like emzi, who is in similar circumstances and a similar age but coping a lot better) might be the way ahead. I think that any "help" delivered by middle-aged ladies, however well-intentioned, would come across as high-handed.

duchesse just a thought, but when you say clearly struggling. Compared to many many other young mums she is doing fantastically well and should be proud of herself. Her family do not have a chaotic lifelstyle and she is somehow making circumstances work for her.

There are some students in my town who have more pocket money from daddy than I'll manage to earn despite the fact I have a good career and love every moment I devote to it. If any one of them (or their daddies) were to look down and see me as poor I'd laugh my my head off. We reap all the benefits of maldistribution of wealth that a good old fashioned capitalist system allows. Would we have it any other way? Of course not - you'd have to share!

Did I forget to throw in the all encompassing "it's all relative" - doffing of cap to senseoftouch and (again to senseoftouch - is there a functioning workhouse in devon' I think my kids would benefit tremendously from it

lifestyle, I have no idea what a lifelstyle is - sounds foreign

tattifer I see your point, but I don't think we should view neglectful parenting as a norm. I think that this lady is struggling at the bottom end of the normal parenting spectrum, as her children's diet is inadequate nutritionally, and she sometimes has to go her mother's so that they can eat for the last two days of the week.

duchesse can we really call her neglectful? There are some very wealthy homes with far more emotionally deprived families contained therein. That old parenting spectrum goes a long way further down than the level she's at.

No, tatti, that's the opposite of what I'm saying. You said she was doing brilliantly compared to a lot of very young mothers, and I am saying we can't compare her coping skills with the inadequate parenting some other very young parents. She is a good mum, and means the best for her children, but is struggling within the normal parenting range due to inadequate education and skills.

I don't view abusive parenting as part of a spectrum of parenting, more as part of a spectrum of abuse. And with an absent abusive alcoholic gambler (tick, tick, tick) for a father, I've had the chance to study abusive parenting first-hand.

duchesse ah, sorry, misunderstood, in that case we really are singing form the same hymn sheet

As you say (also first hand experience...) abusive parenting is a whole 'nuther ball game altogether

Ezmi - I am stunned at the lack of sympathy and understanding that you are demonstrating in this thread - and you say you are training in mental health nursing??

Are you planning to use this 'I am/have been worse off than you and I pulled myself up by my bootstraps so it's clear that you can do better than you are doing...' approach to your clients when you are qualified?

Because your attitude on this thread shows a stunning lack of understanding that people are all different, their circumstances, abilities, education, family etc are all different, and that all these (and many other) factors can have a huge impact on how two people, in apparently similar circumstances, cope with their situations!!

Louise needs help and encouragement - and help does not mean standing up on the heights you have achieved and berating someone for failing to do as well as you have (which is what your attitude here suggests) - it means telling them where they are doing well, and getting alongside them to help them improve their circumstances etc.

And fyi, I am speaking with a certain amount of experience, as a qualified nurse and a user of the mental health services for some time now. I have depression, and often fail to achieve as much as other people or fall short of expectations - so I know exactly how damaging it would be to be told, 'Look, I am in worse case than you and I have managed to do X, Y and Z, so you jolly well can too!!!'

Riven My CTC is £3.71 a week due to the fact they do not want to 'over-pay' me. It has been this amount since last Oct and will stay that way till April.

Its very comlplicated as to why they do this and I cant really explain it too well. I was getting WTC and CTC at around £90 a week. i then had dd and had to stop working so that droped down to £51.50 a week. CTC only.
They then sent me out a letter saying that I would only get £5.71 a week due to the fact they will be overpaying me for the year 07-08. So now its £3.71 till april. Oh well.

I contacted the Guardian about this story and they put me in touch with a charity that knows Louise and sees her frequently. I do not know if I should pass the info on online, but if anyone wants to help her the contacts are there to be found.
I have been almost poor as she, although thankfully not with children, and I think she is doing very well under her dreadful circumstances. I shall be sending her a bit of help and an encouraging message. Maybe other people would like to do the same.

Fairladyrantalot My friend has 3 children. She is at home with them all day and this is why she gets worn out. She visited HV about her 2nd child having behavioural difficuties and therefore the HV thought it may be better giving her some extra time to herself and so referred the youngest dd to a nursery.