to be upset that some of DSs classmates mums have told their DCs not to play with him....

[CrappyMammy]

DS (age7) is a real handful and have always been a real PITAchallenging. Since he started school he has been involved in pushing and hitting other kids (not the only one I might add). Anyway he did not want to give out some of his birthday invites and when I asked him why, he said because a few of his 'friends' have told him that their mums have said that they should stay away from him because he hurts them. I have not been aware of this although his teacher has told me on a few occasions that he has been involved in fighting (he does come home sometimes with bruises and scratchmarks so it's not all one sided).

IMO if he is attacking other kids, I would prefer the parents to tell me (or the teacher)so he is not ostracised . None of the other parents speak to me at the school and I am sure it is because of his 'bad rep'. It is very hard trying to deal with his behaviour. He says he is 'just playing' and does crazy things to make the other kids laugh and his rough and tumble is interpreted as nastiness. Am really at a loss of what to do!!

well I would say, from madwoman's posts on this thread (laughing at other posts, jibing "Dont be daft" "fill your boots"), that she doesnt appear to possess teh skills necessary for a conversation on a sensitive subject, so she is probably better off placing teh problem in the hands of the school right away.

Crappy - Im surprised you and the school dont already have something in place to stop this behaviour, if its happening on a regular basis?

In my experience school and home need to be united, united we stand and all that.

Teachers can only do so much, they are limited in punishments ie lunch time detentions etc

I agree with you to some extent, Gorionine, in that parents can of course influence their children's general behaviour. But if a child has anger management problems or is very impulsive they can forget what they've been told that morning.

My main reason for not approaching the parent is that the situation can easily get out of hand:

Many parents are very defensive of their own child (one only has to read mumsnet) and can get extremely angry.

Such a parent would be more likely to listen to an objective person in authority (the teacher or headteacher).

It is also easy to get overemotional when your child has been hurt and say things that you later regret.

A teacher may have more experience of the playground situation and be better able to suggest solutions.

Thanks for your replies - to those of you saying that I should be working with the school and telling DS that his behavior is not acceptable - err I can talk til I'm blue in the face and it does not achieve anything. I mentioned that DS is a PITA because I am under no illusions about him (he is not a nasty child just extremely energetic and highly strung and can be taken the wrong way). I did try to get his assessed for behavioural problems but was told his problems were not severe enough .

When he started school, the teachers were complaining that he would not 'conform' and were very tough with him to try to nip it in the bud and therefore he has a rep as the 'naughty boy'. He has been kept in at playtimes as these seem to be his flashpoints and I have absolutely no problems with that. I guess I am just at a loss because at my last meeting with his teacher in December (at my instigation) she had said that his behaviour has improved significantly. It is not that there are any problems at home (we are a fairly functional family!), he has always been like it and my other two are fine.

Custardo - your post was not very helpful.

I am rather miffed that I get blanked at the playground and think people must assume I'm a crap mum, perhaps if they spoke to me instead of making judgements about my kid, they'd know my situation!! Have been thinking about moving schools because of it .

Yes Cory, I agree that sometimes things need to go to through the school. I was saying that you can actually work on both fronts at the same time.I was the "do not tell the parents they cannot do anything about it" (not quoting exact words, just my understanding of them) that surprised me a bit.

I think( but I might be wrong as my experience is limited to one event) that Op would have prefered a parent letting her know what was going on. Even if it hurts to feel you might not have been on the ball all the time, it is even worse for a mum to be told Dcs are told not to play with her son without her having been behing able to try and rectifie the sdituation BEFORE it got totally out of hand and everybody is avoiding him! I think it creates a vicious circle: "You hurt us we do not play with you on one side" and 2well, if you won't play with me I will be horrible to you !" on the other.
What saddens me in OP's situation is that NOBODY, nor the school or the parents told her anything, and if it had not been for the party invites, she would still not know the real extent of the problem.

Crappy - Working with the school doesnt just involve you having to do all the talking. The school should be telling you whats happening and you should be following it up at home, so he is aware there is a united front. Have a word with school and see if you can come to some arrangement.

My 12 year old for example was being cheeky and back chatting one of the less strict teachers and an half an hour detention just wasnt doing it, this soon stopped once he relised that the teacher would phone me and tell me and he would be in trouble when he got home ie no TV, computer etc.

Its hard for other parents to approach other parents as someone already said your approach is not always welcome.

I dont think moving school will help.

cross posted!

In the light of your last post CrappyMammy, I would insist that he is checked properly, not because I think he needs it, I never met him, but because YOU think he neds a proper assesment and I think mothers instincts are sometimes right (well always actually)

Plesae change your nickname, you seem to be taking the correct steps, I suggest: SoonToBeBetterThings".

CM - if it is any consolation, when I advise my children to avoid a particular child, it's because the problem isnt severe enough to merit further action. I must admit, I hadnt thought that the children might then say "my mother has advised me to avoid you." which sounds far worse than is actually meant.
Can you try to take the initiative to get to know some of the other parents a bit better?

I think it is wrong for your son to be kept in at playtime as a punishment as if he is on the lively side his bad behaviour may be partly due to not enough excercise. Obviously there should be some punishment for hurting other children but maybe an alternative one that doesn't involve him being kept in.

I think if any Mum feels their child is being hurt by anyone elses child they should contact the school not the parents of the child. The school should get the children who are not getting on together and get to the bottom of the situation. It may be that the other children are provoking your son on purpose to try and get him into trouble.

It sounds as though the school are not dealing with things properly. If your son feels he has no good friends and that the school regard him as a trouble maker it will make his self esteem worse and he will probably not try to improve his behaviour.

I would talk to your son and try and make a list of things that aren't going well at school and then talk to the class teacher followed by the head.

How is your son's behaviour at home. Can you think of any reason why his bad behaviour started.

I think there are some children who are more difficult to handle than others and it is not always due to upbringing. So you mustn't feel that problems with your sons behaviour are always your fault.

In the worst case if the school don't sort things out in the playground and the other Mums are unkind I would try and move school, but it would be better to get to the root of the problem first otherwise you could end up in the same situation elsewhere.

In our school, when the children are caught fighting, they have to attend a meeting, where everyone states their side of it, and they write a statement about how they will behave in future, which they all have to sign.

You may already know about this, but there is a really good book called "The unwritten rules of friendship - simple strategies to help your child make friends" by Elman and Kennedy-Moore. From what you have said, some of your ds's exuberent behaviour is intended to impress his peers and get them to like him. However, it seems to be having the reverse effect. Unless you can help him to find a more successful way to make friends, he is likely to carry on repeating the behaviour that is alienating his peers.

It might also be worth asking the school if they could involve the educational psychologist in finding ways to help your ds to fit it and make friends. The ed psych could maybe set up something like a Circle of Friends, which can be a brilliant tool for helping children who have effectively isolated themselves from their classmates by their behaviour.

I agree with Nighbynight. I would approach the parents first before involving the school. I see it as teachers have so much to do and so many parents to talk to that I am trying to make their lives easier by opening lines of communication that may help. I would have no problems with a parent talking to me about problems either.
OP, I think you should make another appointment with the teacher because I don't think they are handling this well, if your child is being avoided. And if you're feeling brave I would also try speaking to other parents.

Crappy
tbh moving school is not going to help. The parents at your current school are likely to be typical of thereactions you get from any random bunch so better to stay put and figure out how to help your child resolve these issues.

I understand very well how hard it is when others don't understand your child ( my son has ASD) but the reality is that you can not expect the world to bend, understand and accomodate behaviours which - if you are honest - you would not accept in other people children.

If you were dealing with a child being violent towards your son - however hard that childs parents were working to resolve it - you would be only focussed on protecting your own.

You are not really seeing this from the viewpoint of the parents or the other children.
My son has been terrorised by another child who also had ASD and tbh when my son is frightened and distressed i don't want to understand the other child I just want it to stop.
( BTW when he attacks my son the only way my son has to defend himself is to pinch and scratch. Your son may be bearing marks but you may want to consider that he may be bearing the marks of other children defending themselves)

I know you are feeling attacked but many of the comments here are actually good sense.
There is not point in being a victim about this - this is your child and your issue to resolve. he will only get bigger.

Why don't you try to get a referral to an Educational Psycologist who can help you with strategies. You can even do this privately.
It will cost but that may be money well spent if you can resource it.

I wish you and your child the best of luck

Neolara - you have hit the nail on the head. His teacher has said that the other kids do generally like him as they think he's funny but he goes too far. We have had the ed psych involved to do with his low attainment academically as he can't concentrate at all but did not go into his behaviour. Did not know about the book, will find it!!

The thing about moving schools was because I thought him starting afresh may help him as the other kids won't know him and it would maybe get him out of the 'rut' of behaving badly but DH is against it as that would mean moving DS1 (who is in the top set in his class and has no behavioural probs except when I have to get him off the Wii) as well.

In answer to how he behaves at home - the same, very challenging and he has always been this way, there was no trigger.

Have just made another appointment with his teacher to get an update on her observations.

Ingles2 - I think the general anti bullying policy of state primaries is that the school should be approached and not the other parents. The teachers should be professionally trained to deal with bullying whereas the parents aren't. The parents also aren't present to know what is going on.

I think as parents we should do what we can to ensure our own children behave well at school, such as giving the children a healthy diet, sufficient food, enough excercise, not to much TV etc. We can help friendships by invitiging our childrens friends back to tea etc.

After that once the children are in school I feel it is the schools responsibility to deal with any bad behaviour. I think the problem nowadays is that schools only seem to have smiley face charts and missed playtimes as punishments/rewards... Maybe if a child is being too rough they should be asked to jog several laps of the playground to use up their surplus energy.

Good for you CrappyMum.
Just remember to stay calm and focused. Can you ask for the SENCO to be present?

I appreciate that Happywomble, but in reality I don't really think that teachers are any better prepared to deal with bullying than a parent with common sense and a desire to help not just their dc but others. Not IME anyway.
I am friendly with a family with a ds with Severe SEN. For years my ds1 was caught up in day to day aggression from this ds including biting, punching, throwing furniture etc.
I thought the school handled his needs extremely badly, with that catch all phrase of, "we're dealing with it!" whilst the other dc's ran around showing off their current injury and whipping up general hatred towards this boy.
It was only after I started talking to this woman that we worked out a way between us, for my ds1 to play with this ds, when to avoid him, when to try and help. I don't regret that for one minute and would do it again a million times over.

Ingles thats really good that you had a positive experience of solving a problem with another mother.

When my DS was being bullied I felt uncomfortable about the thought of approaching the mother so approached the school and they sorted the problem out.

I suppose it all depends how well one gets on with the other childs mother and how proficient the school is in dealing with bullying issues as to whether one approaches the school or the mother. I have never tried to engineer my childrens friendships but interestingly the friends they have made happen to have very nice mothers..so I have been lucky so far!

I agree - it depends on the school
With Ds2's problems the school have been fantastic.
When DS1 had problems the school were just atrocious - kept treating the two boys as if they were equal protagonists when the other boy was bullying DS1. Although in the case I did speak to the parents and that helped a bit but not much .

I think it depends on so many different things that tbh I think you have to judge each case on its merits and do the best you can.

I couldn't get my arse more firmly on the fence could I

Ingles - I wish there were more people like you with a bit of understanding and compassion.

we are beginning to go down this road too my gorgeous DS just doesn't seem to know when to stop, and I am worrying beyond myself that he too will be saddled with a reputation..

I have told ds not to play witha rough child inhis class. When you have a child who comes home all the time hurt and upset and not wanting to go to school because of the problem you have to try and deal with it.

Out of interest the rough child was sent to another school as his parents felt he was bullied as other children avoided him.

BTW - DS does not actually 'bully' specific children. He has a general problem where he goes a bit loopy and pretends he's a bumper car (bumps into them) or pretends he's a Power Ranger (with all the associated pow pow noises)or pretends he's doing karate . I know he irritates the other children and they do make fun of him and I know for a fact he's gets blamed for things as his teacher has apologised to me before for punishing him (sent to HT) for something she later found out he did'nt do .

I think there is a fine line between bullying and hurting other children

what strategies have you tried at home to reinforce good behaviour ?

shouting and punishing for bad behaviour only gets you so far, there are some good threads on here about positive reinforcement and some good books too

it is hard, especially when you feel your child is being ignored and treated badly due to their behaviour