to be annoyed that people on MN are so against routines?

[Maria2007]

Well, I might be flamed for writing this, but recently I've gotten more & more annoyed by all the anti-routine opinions found on MN. So- am I being unreasonable to be slightly pissed off when I read (again and again) advice to 'co-sleep / wear in sling / bf on demand' when people ask particular questions about their babies (e.g. about sleeping / feeding patterns)? Am I being unreasonable to think that this style of parenting doesn't suit all parents (or doesn't suit all babies for that matter)? Am I being unreasonable to feel that GF (and other advocates of routines) have been unfairly treated here on MN, however much one may disagree on various points in their books (and anyway who said we have to agree with every single thing they write)?

Some background. My DS is 6 months old. He's still breastfeeding (and I plan to continue for as long as I can / he wants). He is also still sleeping with us in our bed (from 11 pm onwards). He's a happy, healthy baby. Until 4 & a half months he was breastfed on demand (with various problems, which I won't go into). Until that point we were getting little or no sleep. I was so exhausted that I decided to work on a routine & in desperation bought the GF books (which until then I had been completely dismissive of). Surprise surprise. Putting DS on a routine (I did it gently & gradually, before anyone shouts at me!) worked beautifully. His sleep has improved dramatically, his breastfeeding has also improved. My milk supply has ALSO improved, making me wonder about the usual advice to feed completely on demand after a certain age. DP & I never felt we pushed our son in any way when putting him on this routine, in fact, it felt completely natural, we just tweaked things here & there & gradually things became better & better.

I simply don't believe anymore that 'all babies fall into a pattern in their own time'. I also don't believe anymore that 'it's normal' for babies to not sleep for months & months, that 'it's normal' for babies to feed all through the night (the thing people say about 'babies having tiny stomachs' also doesn't convince me anymore, not after a certain age, not when they're- for instance- 7 months). We still feed DS at 3-4 am, and we think that's normal for breastfed babies at 6 months, but I simply cannot imagine staying at the place where I was, feeding him all through the night, every 1-2 hours.

Anyway. Just really, honestly, I'd like a discussion on this, because it's something that baffles me. I truly believe I'm a much better parent, more rested, more calm, less irritable, now that we have some predictability and a pattern to our day. I also think that if I had a second child I'd keep an eye on the pattern of their day from earlier. Can't really think why all the anger & disapproval towards GF & other routine-advocates. You may not agree with all their points, fine. You may not like their style of writing, fine again. After all, it's only common sense that each parent creates their own version of a routine for their child, you wouldn't follow any style of parenting blindly would you. But to be so against routines in general is a bit baffling to me, and I've heard it so many times here on MN in recent months, that I honestly would like to discuss it a bit more...

Goodomen, you are so right. Please would you offer your post as a MN tip? I would love to see that on the homepage, preferably as a permenant banner: Your children are not a problem which needs solving.

goergimama - I am not intending to be patronsing or smug, but factual. Some of my children were natural sleepers and fell into a good pattern with very little work from me, my 3rd DD was not such a natural and had she been left to her own devices without some kind of guidance fom me I am pretty sure she would be having sleep problems at 2.

I am absolutely adament that my input and guidance at an early age is what prevented this because she was not a natural sleeperr.

She is now though

sorry if you think thats condescending to say but that's how I feel.

Fine, my problem is that you extrapolate from your limited experience a universal view that all parents with children with sleep problems at 2 should have adopted some form of sleep training which would have prevented this problem.

What about people who did have a routine and still have sleep problems at 2? Not trying hard enough, eh?

well where are these people????

Of course I am not saying thats the case for everyone but I do think its a safeguard against it.

just as healthy eating in childhood is a safeguard against obesity

LOL at 'healthy' sleep habits
those infernal diseased co-sleepers

I mean simply just 'sleeping' at night time, be that co-sleeping or wherever.

Great post Goodomen, as Georgimama says, that should be on the homepage. In fact it should be a mantra taught to all new parents in the delivery suite.
I despair when yet another friend is tearing their hair out because things are not going by the book. Bin the damn book!

YAB slightly U, it's a forum and people are bound to have differing opinions. You just have to accept that some people will have good advice and some will talk utter rubbish - it's the way these things work. I found bounty (the shame that I ever went there) over-run with people who suggested CIO and very early weaning (along with all that bloody textspeak). I find MN is over-run with cuddle them, late weaning, slings, co-sleeping, demand feeding and, although I don't necessarily always agree with the advice, on the whole I prefer the direction it goes in.

If you don't like it you can always disagree, at least here no-one will tell you you're upsetting the other hunnis so you shouldn't say such things.

Me. I'm one of them. DS had a proper bedtime routine from birth and still has sleep problems.

well there's a suprise

I wasn't actually aiming for a surprise element. I'm wondering what wonders you have to suggest?

Go on, have the guts to say I'm a shit mother who didn't try hard enough. It's what you mean.

hey - they are your issues not mine

you need to outline the problem if you want some suggestions but not sure you really want my suggestions anyway

and nobody said anything about being a shit mother

I don't want your suggestions and I don't have any issues. You're the one who has an issue with "unhealthy" sleep habits.

I would like (but am aware it is not going to happen) you and other posters like you to accept that your children's easy adaptation to routines is at least in part nature and not entirely due to your wonderful skills.

This idea that babies should sleep for long periods of time. Where did it come from? Bizarre

You won't be able to cuddle up to them at all hours when they're 16 y'know

is wondering if gf's book has changed then....because the version that I read in 2002/2003 certainly did say that Christiana...

anyway....Maria, not sure why you are so annoyed....surely it is o.k. for people to NT like routines? I mean tehy worked for you...fair do's...they do NOT work for everyone though, simple as that....and if you look at it from a babies physiology point of view, well....than teh evidence seems to point against strict feeding routines etc...
but there will be babes where it will work...

I'm not against routines per se. I'd just like people to remember that adults don't often go without food or drink for many hours at a time so it's a bit bonkers to expect a little baby to do the same.

I just think routines can also ignore the all important interaction between parent and child. Building trust, security etc.

I don't think GF has a lot to offer to be honest. But that's just my opinion. And hell, I'm allowed my opinion. You're allowed to shoot it down but don't get annoyed about it! I don't.

YANBU.

I'm not a fan of forced routines, and I think the early weeks with a newborn are just a case of whatever it takes to stop the baby crying . I really can't see a problem with gently encouraging a routine after that though. Of course it won't suit all babies but I'd hazard a guess that the majority would be happy. Sometimes you can get the feeling that you must be doing something unnatural if your baby sleeps through before it's a year old. Mine slept through (my night so 10pm-6am ish) by 6 weeks when BF with no routine imposed, so I don't buy that it's impossible for a 7 month old baby to sleep through because it's tummy is too small.

I'm a routine kinda girl..to the far left of Gina
I haven't noticed any feeling one way or another though

georgimama - I don't give a shit what anyone else does with their baby regarding sleep and routines........I was merely responding to the OP about my personal opinion on routines. And that is that they do work and are important.

I will not accept that my childrens early sleeping was a fluke because it really wasn't.

Does it offend you so much that I think and truly believe I am a good mother? That's not the same as saying anyone who does things totally differently is a bad mother btw.

Really no need to be so narky with me.

I can confess to reading no books and just watched dd and learnrd what she wanted

head turning side to side=hungry fed her,
rubbing eyes=tired laid her down she slept,
cried=cuddled

I had no what i was doing just did what she told me she needed

months later i found mumsnet and read the "controversies" baby led parenting, routines, GF etc

She napped for 30 minutes every two hours during the day and I have no idea when she slept through as I find parenting a daze

I still know nothing bar they will eat when hungry, sleep when tired and i don't think you can make a baby do anything it does not want to do.

I think its sad that a baby sleeping through the night is deemed to be more important than anything else.

Is it really the end of the world if a small baby does not sleep through the night. I think its better to gently encourage good sleep habits than teach the baby there is no point in crying because no one will come.

I like the "The No Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantsey. It has loads of suggestions for encouraging good sleep associations rather than just having the child cry it out.

My son did find his own routine by about three months. What more shock! horror! it actually fitted better into our family routine than Gina Ford's routine would.

Bit disingenuous Megcleary - you clearly know quite a lot! And you remember that she napped for 30 mins every two hours but you're in a daze about night-sleeping? Whatever...

I always think this is a bit of a false debate. Babies need sleep - it makes them happy. So learning to recognise when a baby needs to sleep and giving it the chance to do so is not, in my view, some slavish adherence to artificial routines but a distinctly baby-centred approach. I've never understood why people characterise GF as 'anti-baby' because of her recommendation that babies (once they are a certain age) should have a decent-length nap in the middle of the day - surely this is a recognition of what babies need, while the free-wheeling, take-the-baby-anywhere-anytime approach is based far more on the interests of the parents? (I have taken both approaches, and both babies were much happier with the opportunity of a proper midday sleep, tho could cope for the odd day if required to cat-nap in buggies etc.)

I agree with the OP that there is a fairly vociferous group on MN who have no truck with anything that smacks of routine. And it's unhelpful. I really think that approaches that sound, on the surface, like they are all about meeting a baby's needs are, in fact, principally about the parents' own wishes. Sometimes babies cry because they're tired and the kindest thing to do is let them go to sleep!

I think you should throw out all books and do what suits your personality! If the mother is happy the baby is likely to be happy.

Actually if I am honest, I am wild stickler for routine (Connie) - in fact I hoover at 9.30 and 5.45 every fecking day and I won't repeat what my bedtime routine is like, but it's muchos retentive - but neither of my children sleep particularly "well"

They are tucked up by 7pm every night and they never cry or fuss

They still don't fecking sleep through though

But I haven't ever let them cry at night or left uncomforted which I assume is what you mean when you talk about your "guidance"

so there

Wispa I remember it was 30 mins every two hours as my cousin informed me that her son was napping for 2 hours at a time at the same age and she was bored doing housework.

As for when dd slept through I don't recall if she was 12, 20 or 24 weeks as to me it did not matter when this apparent "holy grail" of parenting occured she would do so when ready.

I rarely post and you have reminded me why.