to be annoyed that the catholic church is basically saying its ok for men to not want to change nappies?

[AnguaVonUberwald]

We are getting DS christed soon, and as DH is catholic we went to see the local catholic priest about it and were given a booklet about baptism.

Now this is a glossy, 20 page booklet obviously not just produced by the local church, it must be something produced on a much wider scale.

In it they talk about having a baby, your family life, etc and they say:

"accepting each other's views and limitations makes it easier to work out how you wil organise your family life. For example, if dad just can't bring himself to change the baby, there is really no point in mother feeling low and envious of the girl at the clinic whose husband does everything; after all, he may have other failings. Better for each to build on the positive points they find in their relationships."

I find this so annoying and insulting and patronising. How dare they suggest that something so vital to a baby can just be shrugged off by the father as "I can't bring myself to do it"

They don't go on to make any equivalent "mum can't do it" examples either.

It makes me angrier every time I think about it!

tumtumtetum, as far as the education itself goes, there are some bonuses...I have a collection of weird sexual fetishes as long as my arm Life's rich tapestry and all that ...

ROFL BoF

Deffo what I look for in a good school

I opened this post with some trepedation - as I am certainly not a fan of any church and particularly this one so you can see my stand point to start.

I think it is the most sensible thing I have heard from this church ever - you are two people and a team bringing up a child, one will be able to give somethings to the child whilst the other can't and visa versa.

How really enlightening and what a positive point of view, added in with don't worry what other parents are doing and dont get envious of them.

I used to catch my mum "baptizing" my two as babies when she offered to bath them- do you think they'd get into Catholic school on that basis?

Nah, I'm happy enough with the schools they go to really, honest! Some people would rip their arms off to get their kids in though round here.

Angua,
I am sure you are going to do this anyway, but it would be good to talk to your DH, the priest, whoever, about your feelings way before you consider going through the ceremony. This would apply to any sort of commitment one makes in life in adulthood; research and discuss before you go into it. It would be a pity that you dismiss it all after one 'brush' with a badly worded leaflet. Equally, I really think if this sort of thing truly 'makes your blood boil', the ceremony and trappings would not be up your street at all.

I can tell you about the bad bits - it would take ages- I could also tell you about all the great bits too-would take ages and if you feel like this, already, so soon, I don't think anyone could convine you anyway. I feel like you were looking for something to 'make your blood boil' all along and this leaflet conveniently fitted the bill.

Good luck in whatever you decide; nothing, including religion and churches is worth agonising over.

Agree with Prince - and that the catholic church does demand a certain amount of commitment - if you're going to do it at all you ought to be sure and do it wholeheartedly IYSWIM.

Otherwise the default religion of C&E may be a better option as (I have heard) that it's OK if you don't go to church, regularly or indeed at all, and they are OK with people sort of dropping in for the big things (christenings weddings etc) and then going away again.

I suppose i take religion very seriously - insofar as why bother if you don't really believe it - and think you should investigate this and other faiths fully before deciding which one your DC should be a part of.

Alternatively if you are OK with it and DH will take the kids to mass every week then that might work too!!

It's obviously very sexist, like when my sister and I used to read Enid lyton to each other as children but reversing boys and girls names which was very funny and showed how sexist it was BUT it does reflect a lot of women's problems given many men are indeed like that so in that sense it's practical. We certainly need more Catholics in teh church pushing a feminist agenda. I'll only be happy when more than 50% of those in charge are female including the Pope for starters.

This is not 'the' Catholic church, but one book. You might just as well say 'the' British say whatever one might find in a book published by a Briton and by a British press. You won't find it in the catechism that husbands can't change nappies... I was about to make a pun about encyclicals but decided not to

I'm Catholic, so is Dh. He changed the nappies. The dirty ones too. And he washed them afterwards . But the general point seems sensible - focus on each other's good points and strengths.

mamas12 I have been going to catholic churches for over 30 years and have never ever seen a separate room for specifically women and their babies. Have seen in one church a place where parents and babies could sit. Dp used to go in their with dd so I could focus on mass.

If you're not prepared to change a nappy then don't have a bab, whatever gender you are.

Angua - if you are put off by a badly worded leaflet then perhaps you shouldn't be getting DS baptised at all?

Why are you getting him baptised - 'cos DHs family expect it, or to access a school, or 'cos you would like him to be brought up with a faith?

I'm a practising Catholic and know loads of Catholic families through the church and local schools and they are no more sexist than any average Londoner. e.g. bout 30% of the chikdren at our school are regularly brought to school by Dads - I think that leaflet sounds appalling - we never saw that leaflet when we got ours baptised (the last on being in 2007) - I do think you should perhaps discuss with your priest or contact the publishers. It is very thoughtlessly worded, but you cannot make such an important decision based on one baly worded leaflet surely?

Or do you feel generally not 100% comfortable about the whole process anywa, and this has just tipped the balance?

YABU
Why are you concentrating on one line in a leaflet? You show a very poor understanding of Catholisism and I think you should find out a lot more about it before your DS is baptised. It is you who makes the baptismal promises on your ds's behalf at his christening.

I have known some very sexist evangelists if that is any consolation. Come to think of it, several sexist atheists too.

AngelaVonUberwald

Catholicism is a sexist religion, although it is not the only one by a long way. Some non-christian religious leaders are far worse than the Vatican mob in perpetuating sexist practices detrimental to the well being of women across the world.

Any religion that has not moved with the times sufficiently will be condoning sexist behaviour.

I think a major problem is the whole "the Pope is infallible on doctrine" mentality and the selective adherence to Catholic doctrine practised by so many Catholics. Instead of challenging their church's archaic view on so many things the followers just ignore the bits they don't like and quietly live their lives as best they can whilst still professing themselves Catholics - sure they are practising christian people but they are not following their church's teachings in full as they are incompatible with modern day to day life if followed to the letter. Priests turn a blind eye to it all too so long as their flock remain Catholic in name and turn up to church and confession regularly.

I became a lapsed Catholic because I felt it would be so hypocritical of me to profess my Catholic faith every Sunday whilst using contraception and resenting the way the Catholic church's teachings are the cause of so much poverty and suffering, particularly for women and children, in certain parts of the world.

I will not pick it up again just to get my dc into the best local schools as my father had hoped. He thinks I am immature/over dramatic by not being able to just continue as a Catholic by ignoring the bits that are incompatible with my day to day life.

I didn't challenge the Catholic church, there was no "exit interview" for them to collect data on why I and many others stopped attending confession/mass each week.

You could take the opportunity as an outsider to raise the issue of the sexist content of the literature with the priest but there is every chance your opinion will count for little as you are neither a Catholic nor male and you will just be seen as my dad sees me, someone making unecessary waves when they should just be grown up about the matter and ignore it so that they can remain a Catholic.

I am not anti Catholic and don't consider this rant to be Catholic bashing but I do disagree with the Catholic church's doctrines on too many things to be happy to call myself one. I just admit to being a lapsed Catholic.

If the Catholic Church is to change it needs a great many strong men within the church to bring about that change and I can't see it ever happening unless they hide their true feelings about the church in order to get to positions of authority within the church where they can then instigate change. Even then it would probably bring about a major rift such as is happening in the Anglican church over the appointment of women/gay clergy to ever higher positions.