to susoect that what Israel is doing in Gaza is basically trying to exterminate the Palestinians?

[Woollymummy]

I want to be proved wrong of course. I just saw C4 news and cannot believe how tactics that effective at wiping out women and children could be anything other than deliberately targetted, and why? I presume to make sure that in a few years time the population of Gaza will have no men left, and will therefore be up for grabs by more settlers. Am I seeing things that aren't there?

Yes you are seeing things that aren't there.

The reason so many women and children have suffered is that they are used as human shields - it's a Hamas tactic.

The Israeli government has absolutely zero plans to return to Gaza.

Delsional reply to OP
Both sides desire to exterminate each other
Ch4 news tomorrow 11:05pm unseen footage.
I'm in no way defending Hamas rockets
But I am outraged at the wanton destruction.

No the reason that so many women and children have died, is because the Israeli army killed them.

FFS.

Little Bella, I hope the FFS is at israel, not me. just hoping.

also realised I can't spell "suspect".

I know Israel is being targetted too, but not with such precision, calculated, methodical and technologically advanced tactics. What I am wondering is, at what point does this become genocide? How many families, as a proportion of a small population, must be killed before technically, literally or in any other way will the effect be recognised as too far, and in that event, what would any government be able to do to stop Israel? All I have in my mind is two naughty school kids kicking the sh*t out of each other, each backed by gangs, each behaving reprehensibly, but with one kid actually being kicked to death, while the other one can live to kick someone else even harder. People might snootily say that they would of course intervene if the actual culprits were naughty teenagers, but they won't do anything in the real fight in Gaza.

I've found it appalling. And I don't think it's unreasonable to have that thought. I have it too, and then shrink back because it is so ghastly.

Israel has behaved particularly viciously. More evidence will emerge to that effect and they will have to answer beyond the 'this happens in war' standard response.

However, I have to say I really dislike the simplistic analogies drawn on MN about this situation such as kids fighting, wives slapping husbands and husbands stabbing wives and children in response (previous threads). I feel they really don't add to any real understanding of the situation.

It's a really complicated historical situation with an OTT Israeli government responding to attacks on its citizens, threats of suicide bombers, illegal activities on both sides, corruption, claims of legitimate ownership over land, etc etc. It's massive.

Agree with that disapproval of simplicticism, WW. Sadly, a lot of us are somewhat inarticulate and others drawn in but perhaps less informed.

Despite recent awfulness, I would say that I did find posts in the News section extremely enlightening.

presumable the israelis know that the only way in which an imprisoned, impoverished and repressed society can fight back is to have lots of kids who can survive to grow and fight their ancient enemies, and so they are making sure that last option is removed from the palestinians. I honestly feel if the only thing being fired out of gaza was bits of bombed concrete and scrap metal that used to be rooves and wheelchairs, israel would still retaliate with white phosphorous and "proper" missiles. it makes me so upset.

Sorry, no it wasn't at you. It was at the human shields argument, I just find it nauseating.

Perhaps there will be way out of it. Perhaps.

may i add thatI am ashamed to say I posted in a completely reactionary way, having just had a rather stressful play date at my house which resluted in visiting toddler B starting a fight with my DD, which made her react in an unusually violoent way (she has never thrown bricks across the room before). As my WHOLE life revolves around and is dominated by toddlers at the moment, I admit my analogies are simplistic and I am desperately uninformed, but there is room for analogies in any discussion about any topic, and I dare say that whatever the israelis and palestininans do now was and is influenced by what tehy learned as todllers, and that makes me feel even more depressed. In that way, in fact, toddlers fighting is not an analogy - the toddlers of gaza are learning day by day how their parents are treated by others and are seeing the way those parents react in response. Are those toddlers of the future to be blamed for behaving in a similar way in the future. My grandfather was involved in trying to encourage and develop peaceful and collaborative projects in the Middle East rigth up until his death in 2005, and I have many relatives in Israel who I have never visited, probably never will and sincerely hope are not supporters of their government's policy regarding Gaza. I need to be more well informed, of course, but I want to know if my gut instincts are correct. Who knows?

Yes YABU. If Israel was trying to exterminate the Palestinians then why aren't they deliberately bombing the West Bank in the same way? They are Palestinian too after all and in fact are the larger population. The reason why is because parts of Israel are not under rocket attack from the West Bank.

Is the aim to re-occupy Gaza? Hardly. It took years for Israel to finally get out of Gaza involving internal dissent and using the IDF against its citizens. Having finally succeeded in doing this it will not be a popular idea to go back.

If both sides really did desire exterminating each other and Israel has such great military force why hasn't it happened up till now? If people actually looked at what was going on they would see an elected government whose manifesto is to drive the Israelis into the sea, asks for the targeting of "legitimate targets worldwide" ie Jewish schools and children and is allied to radical Islam and committed to Jihad which now is interpreted to mean kill Jews, westerners and other infidels.

On the other side you have a democratic government with a broad range of views whose aim is to try and ensure security and survival while surrounded by hostile nations by whatever means it thinks most effective. Sadly in this case the way chosen to respond to violence was with violence. To say that is a desire to exterminate the other side is a bit far-fetched.

Violence is always appalling and the death of children and families is particularly awful.But why does no one start these threads when children get killed and maimed by rockets in sderot in southern Israel? Why are there only an outpouring of these threads against Israel?

yep that's pretty much what israel are trying to do.
it's also pretty much what hamas are trying to do.

Woollymummy, I'm really sorry. I wasn't intending to make you feel small or anything by the use of analogies. I'm one of those who is lesser informed on this situation too.

Tigger15, "But why does no one start these threads when children get killed and maimed by rockets in sderot in southern Israel?

Why are there only an outpouring of these threads against Israel?"

I wonder this too. Suicide bombings, rockets etc. All reprehensible.

It is, I guess, because Israel has the military might backed by the U.S. and therefore has the power to kill more and more effectively. If it did not have this, then I guess it would not have survived so long.

I really really hope a truce emerges that is long lasting and beneficial to all. But I'm dubious.

Winky I'd like to think that's the reason but I have difficulty believing it. When other countries suffer attacks whether terrorist e.g. Mumbai or governmental e.g. Chechnya, Georgia, the Ukraine there is nowhere near the same outpourings as you get with Israel/Palestine. Surely if it was sympathy with the underdog the same should happen in these situations as well.

When Israel suffers terrorist attacks and rockets which it does frequently my reaction as someone religious and Jewish is to pray for the injured and pray for an end to the awful conflict as well as giving charity and other traditional responses to signs that the world is not going well. I do not start threads on mumsnet saying

"AMIBU to think that all Palestinians are not worthy of having a state" or
how about "the Palestinians should pack their bags and go to the other Arab countries" or "the Palestinians are baby-murderers".

Yet these are the comments frequently found amongst the Israel threads in the past few weeks about Israel.

There are some posters who are just anti-semitic and there are some posters who are rational people with a wide variety of views prepared to discuss the conflict reasonably. While I might not personally agree with all the views everyone has the right to their own opinion. The problem is the amount of people with either little knowledge or swept along by media hysteria and people with deliberate agenda who come out with views which if examined at all are anti-semitic rather than simply anti-Israel.

It is because of these people that I spend my evenings posting so that those who want to learn more can.

So yes I would like to agree with you that it is merely sympathy for the underdog but sadly the nature of many of these threads and the general attitude within this country which has resulted in attacks on the Jewish community leaves me feeling rather sceptical.

tigger15 - I think it's the scale of it - it really has been so vast.

And I give you my absolute assurance that I hope that I never act or speak in any way to contribute to an attitude that will lead to attacks on the Jewish community.

tigger with respect, India has not invaded a section of Pakistan or Kashmir and razed it to the ground in response to terrorist attacks. When Russia responded disproportionately to Chechen terrorism, there was indeed outrage and condemnation.

The reason there is outrage is because what Israel has done in Gaza is outrageous and to attribute that outrage to anti-Semitism is frankly disgraceful.

There will always be a few anti-Semitic nutters who find their way onto threads on the interweb. But they are in the minority and to focus on them instead of the reason for the outrage strikes me as wanting to divert the discussion.

sorry, haven't read the whole thread, but yes, YABU.
Please don't post such things if you are feeling so reactionary without being more informed of the facts.
And HerBeatitude :"the human shields argument, I just find it nauseating." - you may find it nauseating but unfortuantely it's not the argument that is nauseating, it is Hamas's policies and military tactics that are nauseating.

I agree they're nauseating.

But I also find the Israeli army's tactics nauseating.

You know, I truly cannot bear to think that thought and in all honesty, I can't believe it, not really. But the scale of the attack has been so vast and so shocking, I truly find it all quite astounding.

HBLB (sorry too long to spell) you quote the example of Mumbai and say that the Indian government has not razed Kashmir in response. Firstly the Pakistani government has made great efforts to try and appease the Indian government because they recognise the dangers of not doing so. Have you ever seen Hamas apologise for terror attacks? Hardly. Instead you see people celebrating in the streets of Gaza because they have killed Jews.

Russia has been responding "disproportionately" in Chechnya for many years. It only makes the headlines when something extraodinary happens like the school killing.

Saying this is all because what "Israel has done in Gaza is outrageous " is a nice simple answer. Yet if you look at the level of destruction in the middle east not involving Israel e.g. Syria wiping out a city of 30,000 Syrian men, women and children because there was a politically dissident group there, the treatment of the Kurds by Saddam Hussein, continuing persecution of the Bahai, all of these are at least as outrageous if not more so. Yet no one protests. No one starts masses of threads on this. And it is hardly reported in the media.

If it is not due to anti-semitism then what is it due to? Why is Israel outrageous but no one else is?

you can't believe that thought because it is not correct, although of course the destruction of life in Gaza I am sure everyone would agree has been horrifying.
But it is absolutely wrong to say that Israel wanted to destroy Palestinians - that may have been the terrible result, but not the intent. I am sure they will have learned a huge lesson from this operation and I very much doubt something on this scale will happen again.

Both sides are nauseating there are no heros apart from the people of gaza desperately trying to keep alive.

but... Israel is the mightier power and should be more ashamed of not trying other means rather than wholesale slaughter to over come a small but vile enemy in hamas.