to susoect that what Israel is doing in Gaza is basically trying to exterminate the Palestinians?

[Woollymummy]

I want to be proved wrong of course. I just saw C4 news and cannot believe how tactics that effective at wiping out women and children could be anything other than deliberately targetted, and why? I presume to make sure that in a few years time the population of Gaza will have no men left, and will therefore be up for grabs by more settlers. Am I seeing things that aren't there?

HBLB sorry if you think I'm to focusing on anti-semitic nutters instead of the reason for the outrage and an attempt to divert the discussion but what do you think the discussion is about. It starts with an OP asking if Israel are committing genocide on Palestinians and is followed by people agreeing or disagreeing.

All I'm addressing is the basic premise as well as the facts which mean that people only ask this question about Israel. Why not about our behaviour in Afghanistan and Iraq? Why not the Russians in Chechnya? That is what I am calling anti-semitic the sole focus on Israel for questions like this.

nauropath, I really agree with your last post. (Wed 21 Jan 09). And I think you've put well what I was clumsily reaching for.

And i am sorry if it was clumsy. I cannot, seriously, believe anything else.

Glitterfairy - Israel tried negotiation, offering commercial aid and then trade blockades before turning to violence. Seriously what do you think they should have done?

We are sadly in the age where small groups of terrorists prepared to sacrifice their and other people's lives to achieve their aims rule. A small group can wreak more havoc than an army bound by public opinion and international law. Size is no indicator of success anymore.

oh blow I just accidently deleted a long post re Syria and Iraq.

Sorry tigger I disagree with you but Big Brother is on and I have a sneaking feeling that it would be a fruitless exercise to try and convince you that to be outraged by the deliberate targeting of civilians and possible war-crimes in Gaza is not evidence of anti-Semitism per se. I could suggest that you listen to the report that was on PM this evening, it's heartbreakign. Anyway, Latoya is being evicted, sorry to be so shallow. Good night.

HBLB you're right it would be a little fruitless. Not because I don't think that deliberate targeting of civilians and possible war-crimes in Gaza are awful. I do and I'm not denying they are awful although with a slight caveat about the use Hamas makes of human shields. I'm not saying it makes it any better but it is more of a rationale than simply trying to exterminate civilians as was suggested by the OP.

But quite simply when identical things happen in Israel, and you cannot call rockets in kindergartens and suicide bombers in supermarkets anything other than the deliberate targeting of civilians, no one gives a stuff. And that in my view is because no one cares when Jewish blood is spilled which is ultimately anti-semitism.

Tigger, nothing about Hamas is right in my opinion but supporting Israel over this is as bad as supporting fascist muslim regimes. I would not support a religious regime and certainly not one that has such a poor attitude to women.

However the whole innocent women and children thing sort of misses the point of war (and this is a war). They are always the people who get hurt no matter what and for most of history it was them wars were aimed at. Our distaste is not a distaste for the methods of one state over another but for war itself which is fruitless and wasteful as a method of resolving disputes.

I would also condemn the stance of Egypt in this debacle which everyone else ignores.

So what should Israel do in response to the continual attacks on their people?? Perhaps there haven't been as many deaths but they have still been attacked continually for years and are just expected to shrug and say "oh it's ok - not that many poeple have been injured/killed" - we didn't lose THAT many poeple in 7 July bombings really compared to conflicts around the world but just think about how we reacted. How did we feel about the IRA bombings?? I think Israel have been very patient personally and now they've started to target terrorism they've become the bad guys. Hmmmm

Yes, YABU. Unless you've done a LOT of reading, understand what's going wrong, what the history of Israel and the Middle East is, analysed from both sides and come up with an informed opinion, not one from Channel 4 or the BBC.

"So what should Israel do in response to the continual attacks on their people?? Perhaps there haven't been as many deaths but they have still been attacked continually for years and are just expected to shrug and say "oh it's ok - not that many poeple have been injured/killed" - "

Ermm the choice isnt between bombing others and doing nothing there are other choices out there. Exploring the idea of talking to your enemies and attempting to resolve issues via diplomacy are far more preferable but frankly neither side has ever been willing to give ground.

The thing which in my opinion is great about Israel though and gives me hope is that there are plenty of people within it who march against things such as Gaza and who demonstrate every day that they dislike the regime and its current policies. This is in direct contrast to regimes like Iran and I wonder when their citizens will be able to object to the behaviour of their government?

Glitterfairy you've put it in a nutshell. Israel for all its failings is a democracy. People can protest, refuse to serve in the army and make all sorts of displays of dissidence without fear of violence or death.

The same cannot be said of Iran or Gaza. After Hamas' election it killed off its Fatah opponents (to be fair Fatah reciprocated in the West Bank). Even while under attack from Israel there were reports of Hamas killing people in hospital who it accused of being Israeli collaborators and then counting the deaths as due to Israeli bombs. Not exactly the actions of a reasonable government.

They have refused to talk to Israel directly and insisted anything must go through Egypt. It's hard to do diplomacy when your counterpart won't talk to you and keeps on calling for your destruction.

I think the only hope of peace is through commercial initiatives. Extremists thrive amongst the poor and dissatisfied. If Israel can help build up the West Bank and turn it into a thriving commercial area that would make those in Gaza who are not Hamas realise that there is another option to violence. Whether that is likely to happen has yet to be seen.

YANBU, it's outrageous and tragic.
I have been staying away from this topic on mumsnet for awhile, as I can't stand the crap that some people spout.

I have done plenty of reading on this subject.

YABVVVVVVVU. Further than that I refuse to be drawn into the argument.

But I will say that there are far more Palestinians in the West Bank. If there was exterminating to do, that would be a better place to start .

God I wish people who don't have a clue would stop being so f-ing judgemental about Israel.

Surely if someone was making an attempt to exterminate the inhabitants of Gaza, they wouldn't target the West Bank

ooooh, I am so intrigued to have started a big argument on Mumsnet, some people get so het up don't they!

Anyway, I should read the posts that have gone up instead of just reacting to the last one.

Thankyou all for your posts, I do feel more enlightened now, though not less miserable about the situation. What seems most unfair to me is that Israel has not made any arrangements for citizens of Gaza who are not pro-Hamas to seek assylum or at shelter during the war. Their feeling of abandonment and stress must be desperate.

I didn't want to say any more as I wanted this thread to die off, but since it's been bumped anyway....

Please please think a little more before posting threads like this again. As a Jew, I find it extremely offensive to suggest that Jews are trying to exterminate anyone only just over half a century since there was a very serious attempt to exterminate the Jewish people.

If it wasn't for Tigger's very eloquent and sensible posts, which I think everyone should read, I would ask for this thread to be deleted.

YANBU.. its tragic.

If they were to strike oil then the USA would swoop in and save them all,

Maybe if we stopped selling them guns.

It is sad that people can do this evil to each other, nothing is ever learned from history.

It is heart breaking to see the photos of dead children, grieving parents, bereaved families every day on the news.

Both sides are a fault, but you would think that after so much persecution themselves throughout history that the Israeli people might think twice before unleashing hell on others.

As a Jew I agree with the original poster - I think the Israeli government has dehumanised the Palestinians totally for years - I think of Golda Meirs statement of 'two-legged beasts' to describe Palestinians and think that nothing has changed. That is why the israeli army has no compunction about shooting palestinan children point blank and has horrible resonances of the 'untermenschen'(sp) comments in 1930's germany.
Using anti-semiticism to prevent criticism of the Israeli governments actions is all too convenient.

The West does not have a great tradition of supporting democracies - the opposite in fact - Kuwait, Saudi Arabia etc etc. Oh yes, and the great democracy of Israel has just stopped the Israeli Arab parties from standing in the coming election!

And frankly when I see the wall around Gaza it reminds me of the Warsaw ghetto - and once again the world is accepting the oppressors version of history while people get massacred. Disgraceful!!

Kate - as a Jew you are a completely misinformed one.

Golda Meir did not state that "Palestinians are two-legged beasts" it is a statement misquoted and misattributed to Menachem Begin another Israeli prime-minister.

Begin was talking, not about "the Palestinians" but about terrorists who target children within Israel.

On June 8, 1982, Begin addressed the Knesset in response to a no-confidence motion over Israel's invasion of Lebanon. He talked about defending the children of Israel, and according to a June 9, 1982 AP report, ?his voice quaver[ed] with anger and sadness.? According to the minutes of the session, Begin stated:

The children of Israel will happily go to school and joyfully return home, just like the children in Washington, in Moscow, and in Peking, in Paris and in Rome, in Oslo, in Stockholm and in Copenhagen. The fate of... Jewish children has been different from all the children of the world throughout the generations. No more. We will defend our children. If the hand of any two-footed animal is raised against them, that hand will be cut off, and our children will grow up in joy in the homes of their parents.

If you are a Jew well done for inciting and perpetuating Anti-Semitism.

And would "the wall around Gaza" be referring to natural mountains? Perhaps you'd like those knocked down? Or is it confused with the security wall in the West Bank?

Of course the prime purpose of Gaza is to exterminate the people within it while extracting forced labour since you believe it is the same as the Warsaw Ghetto?

Your relationship with the truth appears remote at best. But I suppose to accuse you of this would be anti-semitism?

To state so assuredly that one will "defend our children" while knowing in one's own heart that that will mean delberately killing someone else's children makes that person inhuman. It makes you a beast, because that is how beasts and animals behave. It is not antisemitic to be shocked and disgusted at deliberate targetting of children. It is to be human. It is to be a mother.

The people in charge of targetting women and children on either side of the wall around Gaza are men and women with no perpective or education, no maternal instincts and no compassion. They are guided by self-interest, hatred, anger, tribal blood-lust and male pride. I am just as disgusted by this behaviour if it happens to be exhibited by a jew, muslim, catholic, protestant etc etc.
It is interesting to note that Israel justifies its attempts to wipe out its enemies in Gaza as self-defence, whereas Hamas admit that they are trying to wipe out Israel. But what they are attempting to do is kill each other.

You cannot excuse behaviour if it is wrong. You need to stop it.

I presume that those who support the behaviour of Israel actually think it is fine to kill another human being. They must be actually able to imagine going up to someone who has offended them or insulted them or hurt them, and stab them.

In that way, those people are behaving in the same way (whether in thought or deed, no difference really, in essence is there?) as any scummy knife-wielding gang member in London or Glasgow, or any angry upset suicide bomber or rocket launcher in the middle east. If you think it, it is the same as doing it. You have to try and think a different way. Saying "we must defend our children" and then going about it by blowing up other people's children is NOT THE BEST WAY.

You have written very eloquently Woollymummy.
I really worry about the use of "anti semitism" on MN especially recently. It is mindless and provocative. If what had happened in Gaza recently had happened in Israel, the majoriety of intelligent posters would be responding as passionately. It is not about race - its about the destruction of innocent civilians. So leave out the race card please.

Couldn't agree more with the last two posts.

As I have said earlier there are Israelis who see this as wrong and who clearly have a voice within Israel and I hope that their voice wins out.

I would also like to see some criticism of Egypt for its stance on this which is not a humane one in refusing to let aid in.

Hamas and the factions it represents are dangerous and the regimes which support it vile and we should not forget that in our justified reaction to the repugnant loss of life.

The West reacted badly when it was threatened by extremists and fought back and civilians were killed then, none of us have the right to take a morally righteous stand here but what we can say is to cease the violence and start to talk.

Anyone here heard of Sabra and Shatila?

If that isn't evidence that the Israel would rather not have Palestinians around then I don't know what is.

Put Gazans into a ghetto, surround it with firepower, allow only a few in and out with the right paper. Later on, move the tanks after an uprising to clear it out.

we have heard a similar story before.