to susoect that what Israel is doing in Gaza is basically trying to exterminate the Palestinians?

[Woollymummy]

I want to be proved wrong of course. I just saw C4 news and cannot believe how tactics that effective at wiping out women and children could be anything other than deliberately targetted, and why? I presume to make sure that in a few years time the population of Gaza will have no men left, and will therefore be up for grabs by more settlers. Am I seeing things that aren't there?

Woollymummy if someone came along and tried to kill you dc and protected themselves by dragging other innocent unconnected children in front of them and saying look you can't kill me because you'd kill other children what would you do? Sure you could run away and not have to confront the issue but what if there is no where to run to? You could throw yourself in front of your dc and say kill me instead but know that the outcome of that would be that you would be leaving your dc distraught and unprotected. What do you do in that situation? Allow your children to be killed and say look what a fine upstanding liberal citizen I am I have sacrificed my children for a good report in the media who will ignore me when I am under attack again? That is the choice that Israel faces.

"I presume that those who support the behaviour of Israel actually think it is fine to kill another human being." Don't presume it. The tenor of the posts against Israel makes those who have more moderate political views take a harder line for the simple reason that a lot of the posts against Israel deny its right to exist, support Hamas in their aims, neglect to mention that Hamas have called for attacks on Jews worldwide which are being carried out.

By the same measure, I'm beginning to presume that those who cry out about the injustices of the Palestinians think it's fine to kill all Jews.

Brightongirldown under you say "If what had happened in Gaza recently had happened in Israel, the majoriety of intelligent posters would be responding as passionately"

Have Israeli women and children been targeted by missiles that kill and maim? Yes for the past 8 years.

Have Israelis been unable to lead normal lives? Yes all activity in Southern Israel has been frozen by the continual barrage of rockets which make it impossible to work or go to school. This is in addition to suicide bombs through the rest of the country.

Is this the same as a bombardment? No but in some ways it is worse as you have no one to negotiate with or even consider their demands. Over 1,200 Israelis have been killed in terrorist attacks since 2000 that is about the same as the numbers coming out of Gaza and do not include opponents killed under cover of external attack.

So why don't you see anyone posting about any of these things? Are you saying there are no intelligent posters?;)

Foxytocin a rather poor comparison. The IDF was responsible for allowing the Phalangists (Lebanese christians) to massacre the Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila. This caused massive internal strife and resolutions not to do it again.

Ever heard of Hama in the same year? Far more killed but by Muslims to Muslims so who cares?

the Phalangists did the killing right under the eyes of Israeli army officers and soldiers who were holding the defensive positions on the buildings and hills surrounding the camps.

Nothing was happening in those camps that the Israelis did not know was going on. In fact, many quarters believe that the Israelis paid the Phalangists to carry out the massacre. The Israelis knew what was going to happen in those camps before the Phalangists got there all the way to Ariel Sharon.

Tigger, I am not sure I agree with your first paragraph to woolymummy. I dont think those are the choices at all.

I dont buy the human shield argument but even if I did I dont agree with using force in the first place. Because someone does something bad to you does not mean you should reciprocate.

A democracy (which Israel is and which is extremely rare in the middle east and should be supported) should look at other ways to resolve these things.

Overall the world needs to think of better ways to address terrorists and terrorism fighting back with force doesnt work but neither does doing nothing and I certainly dont pretend to have a solution.

Glitter I agree with most of your post and agree that the world needs to find other ways to address terrorism other than force because I don't believe it works. My personal view is the only way to remove terrorism is to remove the conditions that create it namely poverty, injustice and lack of employment for angry young men.

The presumption in many posts that upsets me is the widespread belief that Israel has turned to violence as a first recourse along with a number of posters who seem to believe that Israel is still occupying Gaza despite having given it to the Palestinians 3 years ago. Attempts were made to negotiate and refused by Hamas who won't talk to Israel at all. Israel tried to stop weapons entering Gaza by trade blockade (criticised by many). Throughout this period Southern Israel was under siege from rockets and nothing violent was done. While violence is not good, to do nothing suggests that you accept that your opponent has the right to attack you without fear of retribution or that you don't care about the welfare of your own citizens. Maybe the good that will be taken out of this tragedy is that there may be more willingness to negotiate and find a way forward.

Before the State of Israel, there were some Jewish terrorists operating in Palestine. Some of these terrorists went on to become Prime Ministers and Cabinet Ministers in the state of Israel.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The only difference is who gives the the terrorists patronage and legitimacy.

In the case of the Jewish terrorists, it was the United States, I believe.

Technically it was the UN (including this country and Russia)who voted as a majority that both Jews and Arabs had a right to a state on the former mandate of Palestine.

yes, technically

If you consider that this vote took place during the cold war and the USA and USSR managed to vote for the same thing, that's a good deal more than technically.

sigh, nevermind tigs. after all you do know that there is more to the creation of the state of israel than a vote in the UN, oh, and the cold war.

Tigger, agree with everything you have said in your last post.

As for the creation of the state of Israel I think it is a moot point now. Tigger is right though that it was the UN and we had a lot to do with its creation. Personally I think a lot of mistakes have been made but we need to move past them and stop thinking one side has all the right and the other all the wrong.

Israel is a mighty power (and should take responsibility) but it is also a democracy and I believe that giving citizens the right to demonstrate, vote and say their piece is very important especially in the middle east where it is a rarity. I also regard a state such as Iran which makes women dress a certain way and treats them and children as second class citizens is not one I could ever support.

Having said that I have re read this thread and think that we have more in common than we think because we all agree that alternatives to the bombing should be found and fast!

I just love the way that any Jewish person who disagrees with the Israelis is accused of perpetuating anti-semiticism.
It is an old and tired argument from those who seem to believe that because atrocities are comitted by Israelis that they are not atrocities - so I guess that my father, who was when he was alive a survivor from Rumania and totally and absolutely against the state of Israel for his whole life also an anti-semite! what a joke!

The problem with hard line pro-zionists is that they have to resort to accusations of anti-semiticism as there is no way to defend the unspeakable behaviour of the Israelis towwards the Palestinians, who by the way are not responsible for the holocaust but who were driven off of their land as a result of it. Of course anyone is welcome to doubt that I am Jewish that is their perogative, but I'm not alone in being an anti-zionist jew - I suggest if people are interested they take a look at www.jfjfp.org/index.htm which is Jews for Justice for Palestinians, or read Chomsky or see the recent letters in the guardian protesting against Israeli actions.

Yes it is a wall around Gaza and I suggest you look at some of the Israeli press where attitudes to Palestinians are absolutely clear.

On Tuesday it is Holocaust Memorial day - and the idea is to look at what happened in the past and say "never again" - this does not just mean never again to Jews but to everyone. I for one will be joining together with people who genuinely want to say never again will the world tolerate genocide no matter who is on the receiving end - and hope that not only will there not be another holocaust but no more rwanda, darfur or gaza!!

well said, Kate.

Kate - I note you haven't mentioned anything about getting that quote wrong. Is that what you mean by "I just love the way that any Jewish person who disagrees with the Israelis is accused of perpetuating anti-semiticism"?

If you'd actually bothered to read anything I wrote you might have noticed that it wasn't an all out defence of every action taken by the IDF over the past 3 weeks. Nor did I have to resort to claims of anti-semitism to find a rationale.

The problem I raised is the proliferation of these threads only about Israel. Not Russia, China or any of the Arab countries in even less equivocal situations.

I believe that the state of Israel makes the rest of the world safer for Jews not living in it. As has been seen time and time again the world and liberal opinon will not rescue a persecuted minority e.g. Rwanda. It may wring its hands but it won't produce any miracles. Israel will. When the Russians attacked Georgia recently the Israelis arranged to airlift most of the Jewish community to Israel.

I don't know what your reasons and your father's reasons are for opposing Israel and everyone is entitled to their own view. But at the end of the day assimilating yourself into the host country and showing how reasonable you are will not protect you when the tide turns again. The Jews of 1930s Germany are the usual proof of that argument.

I agree that Israel is not to be held up as a leader on many issues but surely the way to get improvements in that area is not by joining with its enemies who cry for its destruction and the extermination of Jews worldwide or should I say "attacks on legitimate Jewish targets" like schools and pedestrians. One reason give why Israel does not do enough to help Palestinians is because it feels that it is under attack and has to spend all its resources defending itself. How is attacking it further going to produce a positive result?

But you did resort to claims of anti-semiticism though didn't you? and it's extremely insulting.

The reason my family and myself oppose the state of Israel are simple - We are against the systematic persecution and genocide of any people or peoples and unfortunately the state of Israel has been built on a premise that Palestinians are not important - hence the 'land without a people for a people without a land' - except there were people there weren't there?

I do not agree with the fundamental zionist tenet that says jews and non-jews cannot live together in peace because anti-semiticism (or any other racism) is something natural in our society. I can quite understand why an Israeli state would seem to make sense to people who had survived an ordeal that has changed history as we know it. But, the fact that it made sense to people then does not justify persecution of others and I am extremely proud that my father, despite the horrors he went through, which included losing his first family, and most of his extended family, never lost his humanity for other human beings.

Frankly, the times when I have been defended against racism has not come from pro-zionists whose answer is always to go to Israel, but from non-jews who want to stand up against ALL forms of racism.

I believe the following quote from Gerald kaufmann probably summarises my position quite well "The current Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among Gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians."

It's really not on is it?

kate, I'm loving reading your posts...

Me too - so important to have this conversation on here. I'm not going to answer your question, Tigger, as I feel Kate has already done that.

My reading of your OP was that as a Jew you have the right to say anything you like about Israel and make whatever analogies however wide and extreme and irrelevant of whether they are based in fact or not. I objected to what I read as it's ok for a Jew to make statements that are untrue and incite anti-semitism. I don't think it's ok for anyone to do that. Would you agree that similar statements have been used by people with a certain agenda to justify attacking Jews and give it as a basis of why it is fine and acceptable to drag motorists out of their cars and beat up boys in the streets of London? Because that is the use that these statements are being put to and whether you agree with it or not you have a responsibility as someone who is against the systematic persecution of people to ensure that your statements do not legitimise people with an agenda of persecution.

Whether it is a fundamental zionist tenet that Jews and non-Jews can't live in peace (and actually you'll find it a basic religious one that Jews are always to be subject to problems as long as we remain in exile- and exile means until the Messiah comes not the building of the state of Israel), it has been proven that way from history. Take the crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Chmnielki pogroms, expulsions from every European country and more recently attacks and persecutions within all the Middle East countries. It's not a pretty picture and most of these occurred before the state of Israel.

Now take a look at English society today. Would you say it's welcoming to refugees from persecuted countries? Hardly, given the backlash against "asylum seekers" and the tensions with the new EU workers. It's good that there are people out there prepared to stand up against racism but judging by the actions of the government they are a minority. The majority as usual are happy to let things go so long as they're not being done out of anything.

We're not going to agree on this but all I'm asking is you consider what you intend to achieve with your posts and what their effect on others outside the virtual community they may have.

And finally, I don't doubt that you are against systematic persecution and genocide of any people or peoples but why is it that there are not tonnes of similar threads on chechnya, Georgia and Tibet? Why only Israel? Is it because what is happening there is so much worse? Think about that honestly.

she hasn't brightongirl. Which is why I've repeated it again.

Ok - personally I have demonstrated against persecutions from other places apart from Israel but to answer you very quickly as I've promised to take my kids out, is that the reason that I feel so strongly against Israel is that it purports to speak in my name, has rewritten history, and does what you have yet again implied in your above post, which is to imply that criticism of Israel is an invitation to be anti-semitic and support attacks on Jews.

I will repeat once again, it is so often the people who are against ALL forms of racism including the racism perpetuated from Israel to the Palestinians, that stand up against anti-semiticism - and before you ask yes I've marched against anti-semiticism as well.
It is easy to say that 'good' people are in a minority, but if that's the case then rather than just accept it as the human condition I would prefer to stand up and be counted and try and convince others to as well.

History is littered with horrors but it is also littered with countless acts of bravery and compassion for others - I suggest you read some Primo Levi for accounts of how even in the darkest nights some little acts of human kindness can show through.

Tigger it is because we see it on the news, which opens up a debate. Over here in Sydney (which is pretty polarised) you don't hear much about what's happening in the rest of the world. I am disgusted at the way aboriginal people are treated in their homeland and how Mugabe watches his citizens die, but we are talking about what happened in Gaza. Start a thread about Tibet and you will get plenty of reaction.

yes brightongirl it is on the news and predominantly so. Why is that? You see little pieces on other events but not the concerted coverage this is given to Israel.

To give a recent example, Russia's invasion of Georgia. How many mumsnet threads? 1. How many on Tibet? 0. How many on Israel? The search engine gives up after 500 messages.

Kate - I understand your discomfort at feeling people are speaking your name for something you disagree in. But face it- certain elements will use criticism of Israel as a justification of anti-semitism however unracist the original aim might be.

I'd be interested to know when these marches against anti-semitism that you've attended have been? My recent recollection of all Jewish communal marches since 2002 have been pro-Israel ones and obviously you wouldn't attend those.

Your goals are lofty and I admire them. But I'd much rather they didn't get put to the test again.

Marches against anti-semiticism - well I would include all of the anti-nazi league marches I went on from the 1970's onwards, the unite demonstrations, the march against the BNP bookshop in 1992 (london) etc etc (I'm probably a bit older than you I'm in my 50's so was at univ in the 70's), but you are right I've not been on Jewish communal marches. I meant marches/demonstrations consisting of both jewish and non-jewish people who considered it their duty to stand up against racism and anti-semiticism together. A bit like the tradition of cable street in the past - jews and non-jews standing together against injustice.

I don't know how many mumsnet threads there have been about other injustices in the world being quite new to this internet lark (or at least new to the joining in bit!)but I would bet that if you look you will find as many people who care about injustices in the world elsewhere as in the middle east.

I would say that the reason it dominates the news at the moment is because it is happening at the moment - it would indeed be scary if phospherus bombs, the bulldozing of houses and the killing of civilians were not making the news.

The problem with your view that "certain elements will use criticism of Israel as a justification of anti-semitism however unracist the original aim might be" means that we can't criticise anyone - after all we don't have a problem criticising Mugabe in case the racists highjack our argument, or being outraged at Saddam Husseins gassing of the Kurds in case people become anti-Iraqui do we?

I am wary of an argument that says that Israel is a special case because to criticise some Jews is to criticise all (unless of course you do not agree with zionism when the implication becomes that you encourage anti-semiticism).

I do have sympathy for the fact that you clearly feel that the anti-semites are everywhere waiting to get you - I disagree that the Israeli state persecuting others will make you (or me) safer.

I think it is possible to be against Israel and pro Jewish and it is also possible to be against Israeli actions but pro Israel and the people within it.

I am a strange mix of emotions over this as my grandfather was Jewish and it wasnt talked about in our family until recently. The only reason my gran found out was his reaction to Jewish people in the second world war when he took them in. Apparently he also had friends who hid the fact that they were Jewish, I found out from his foster son.

I think anti semitism is pretty rampant even in country areas where you would expect it not to be an issue and overheard my kids defending having jewish ancestors when someone in their school said thank god there are no Jews here. I agree Kate that anti racism is the way to go but I still think there is a lot to be said for the state of Israel now rather than the rights or wrongs of when it was formed

Kate - I agree with your point that we should have the right to criticise Israel in the same way as any other government or regime that is doing something unjust. The whole point of democracy is to have the freedom to give your views even against those expressed by the state.

My concern is that when people criticise Mugabe, Chechnya, Russia in Georgia etc you don't see a correlating rise in attacks on Russians or Zimbabweans living outside of Russia and Zimbabwe yet when Israel appears in the news in these circumstances the rates of anti-semitic attacks throughout the world rises by a huge degree and life becomes very difficult in many areas. Sure it happens at other times too but there tends to be a big surge when Israel either has an intifada or a war. Call it a persecution complex if you want but if anti-semitism isn't linked to anti-Israeli feeling why does this occur?
The only other group to have similar complaints were the Muslims after 7/7 which was not a response to events occurring in a far off land.

And yes I am much younger than you- about 30 years