to expect my local cancel to pay for transport to a private school

[tootyflooty]

My dd has been offered a place at a theatre school, it is fee paying but not local and they do not have scholerships. I asked the council if they would provide the cost of a train pass, but were told no, because it is not our local state school.My argument is that by funding my dd education for the next 5 years (not easily affordable for us)I am saving the local education authority vast sums of money as they will not be paying for her place at the local state school, it seems unfair that we are penalised for our decision, She would get a free pass if our local school was over 3 miles away.Sorry to ramble but we have never had handouts from anyone and this seems grossly unfair.

Most people I know who are well off do seek to give a lot back.

I was putting the argument of the childfree but I agree they usually had a state education when they were children so benefited from the system then and the country needs reasonably educated people unless we choose to import them all.

On the subject of specialist schools some local authorities do help. The schools we know are specialist music schools like Chetham's etc and I do know some local authorities pay the fees never mind the bus fares so it's worth looking at whether they will here.

By 80sMum on Sun 14-Dec-08 18:11:38
That was very well put, crazyloon. I do see your point. But the fact is that some people will always have more money than others and money enables people to buy things. People with more money will be able to afford more/nicer/better things than people with less money. That's never going to change. You seem to be saying that some people being better off than others is intrinsically wrong. Should everyone be the same, educated in the same way, given the same opportunities, paid the same?

IN a word, yes.

Haven't caught up with the rest of the thread yet, but to that question, yes - I mean of course eveyrone shouldn't be the same, but the education given should be of an equal standard and the opportunites afforded should be equal.

How can you possibly believe otherwise?

Ok, of course there would be massive disruption if the private schools closed - but I don't think it would matter too much in the scheme of things. In fact I think it would be brilliant - all those wonderful, headhunted teachers and fantastic resources would be available to 'normal' children at last!

I don't know how it would work out economically speaking, that is certainly not my strong point, but I still think it ought to iyswim.

Why the hell should some children be privileged to a great education, a better chance at gettingt hose top jobs etc, and not the rest of our kids?

I know you think all our children are oiks in the state sector but they are not. Some schools are full of oiks, some are not.

Ours probably has the highest rate of 'nice, educated, guardian reading parents' within 40 miles but is a state school.

I think there will be oiks wherever you send your children though.
I'm aware we are lucky to have got a good school though - many public sector kids don't get that option. Again, something that ought to be addressed. I don't feel good that my children are getting a better deal than a lot of other kids, I feel embarrassed. But then maybe that's because I didn't pay for it?

i'm with xenia all the way here, there is a section of society born to be things like cleaners and check out operators.

those of us who have good jobs have worked hard, checkout operators obviously didn't work hard enough becuase if they had, they would be city bankers. - there is no inbetween here.

even if they had worked slightly harder, they could have been at the very least a social worker or a teacher, i mean its not hard to be that is it?

oh how i laugh at Gerald, the loon spent 7 years training as a doctor, when i earn 89 times his salary as a consultant to a city bank, the misguided fool.

my 15 year old daughter earns more than gerals ( but she only trades the market twice a week)

ahem ...maybe we could go back to the OP's post rather than get sucked in by what Xenia throws in the pot?

OP, YABU to expect the council to pay. You probably find that the school provides transport for a reasonable cost (ours does for £30/month), not private school but not nearest school. I happily pay despite a very variable income.

My sister has worked as a cleaner with her Oxford degree. Cleaning is good for all of us. Even I clean from time to time.

Why should some children have a better education than others? Simply because we are all born different from each other. You won't even get the same education in the state sector -as middle class parents nab the better state schools or grammar schools in those rare areas which operate them and even if private schools were banned parents would educate children at home or abroad. If we randomly had a lottery for all state schools good and bad in a town and bussed children from good areas to bad (as Brighton has tried and they used to do in the deep South of the US to achieve racial segregation) then you might start to achieve some similarity between schools and their intake but nothing can take the genes away nor the enivornment at home unless you try the original Israeli kibbutz idea of children not living with parents but in homes or some communist systems with communal living I suppose.

Interesting that some people feel embarrassed their children are getting a better deal? If so why don't you send them to the worst sink school around on moral principles? Peopeld o that. I 've heard of children of the left who are rich being sent to really bad London state schools because the parent wants to make a difference. It doesn't work of course and the child resents it for life but by all means sacrifice your children on the altar of your socialist principles if you're that way inclined just as I will do what is best for my own children. Thankfully we are just about still a free enough country to allow both types of parent to exist.

I think there is nothing I can say to make you alter your perspectives, Xenia.

I feel embarrassed because I care that the other children are not as lucky as mine. It doesn't mean I want mine to be as unlucky as them.

You don't even seem to care that other people's children are disadvantaged.

You seem to think it's fine to scramble to the top of the pile, treading on all and sundry to ensure your pretty ass is saved.

I didn't do that you see - we got offered a place in a nice school and I took it. I understand that for soe parents the choice is an incredibly awful school or going private. But what I am trying to say is that it shouldn't be that way - people ought to all have access to good schools.

What makes yours more entitled to a good education that others? Why are you so special? I don't get your mindset. It's like you're a superior being or something.

i wouldn't say my politics are communist - left wing yes, communist no.

and if your sister worked as a cleaner with ehr oxford degree, doesn't that rather negate your earlier arguments about great education giving the country its leaders?

Surely not its cleaners.

i use a duster, rather than a degree, it must a middleclass thing?

yars yars, i agree with xenia, if your richer your child deserves a better education.

With respect crazy, do you really are about oher peoples children generally ?
I used, wanted every baby in the world to be as lucky as mine and then you realise that they can't be because of the free will of the parents.
Xenia isn't trampling on anybody to get to the top she's giving her kids a leg up in life which is all any of us do when we pay for swimming lessons, read to them, take them on a holiday somewhere nice.
The point she made about her sister cleaning is that her sister can turn her hand to whatever she has to do to survive, could you go and get a £50k job ?

From my experience state school kids tend to be more spoilt and demanding and less resourceful anyway, so unless you've seen both sides it's wrong to critise either.

More to the point Xenia's sister worked as a cleaner because she 'chose' to, for a holiday job or something, not because she has to, or is the only job she can get. I seem to remember Princess Di 'cleaning' for her sister as a 'job'.

This, I know, is going to lead to a rant as to why people should go to private schools etc etc. mainly so they don't end up as cleaners or some other such simplistic viewpoint.

But, as I and many others have said, ad naseum, private education is simply not a choice for the vast majority of people (cleaners included).

For those who think it's just a case of giving up a foreign holiday or new car or something just really have absolutely no idea of the real world out there.

why can't everyone get a 50k job? - serious question.

ooh it must be a hard question

There's no reason why anyone can't earn £50k a year, I was brought up in a council flat and was earning that at 22 but it's down to the individual having the get up and go isn't it.
However it was a £16k job which with commission paid £50k and because I was in sales and that has peaks and troughs, maybe a different upbringing would have given me a better career path which would lead to consistantly earning £50k.

so those who can't and dont earn 50k dont have 'get up and go?'

am thinking teachers, nurses, junior doctors, solicitors, social workers etc.

SparklyGothKat on Sat 13-Dec-08 13:00:08
"DS1 isn't statemented So we had to apply for the adapted schools under 'medical and social needs' and as a result its proving hard to find out about transport."

Keep nagging Sparkly! We got it for dd who is disabled but not statemented. You have to keep at the LEA though.

Custardo - there arent that many £50k jobs out there, and i would love to go and get one but nobody pays that much even for a skilled administator like me lol.

and fwiw i went to both state school and boading school (on scholarship) and the state school i feel would have helped me more at the time (my mum died aged 14) rather than me choosing to go to boarding school to run away to.

the state school i was at even though i was leaving sat me down let me cry and also came looking for me when i locked myself in my mum and i's house for 2 weeks and didnt go to school. My boarding school however just swept these issues under the carpet and didnt address them at all and then told me at the end of my time there (3 years) that i would never amount to much. Nice

so you see for all the money wealth and privelidge at that school it lacked the compasion and understanding of the state school.

hope its relevent as a comparison

KatieDD on Mon 15-Dec-08 10:01:25
"There's no reason why anyone can't earn £50k a year, I was brought up in a council flat and was earning that at 22 but it's down to the individual having the get up and go isn't it."

Yes dear, there is a reason. There are only a limited number of 50k jobs, and those are dependent on an infrastructure of lesser paid jobs, without which they could not function.

Even if 50 million Brits had exactly the same amount of get up and go, that would not create 50 million well-paid jobs!!! And no jobs could carry on paying out salaries, if there weren't lesser paid people keeping the streets clean, the sewers unblocked, the food harvested, the shops stocked, the computers serviced and the stationery delivered. If everybody insisted on doing a well paid job, we'd all be dead within weeks.

(personally, I have a small unpaid job explaining this weekly on Mumsnet. One day it will sink in, it will, it will, it will!)

Sorry Katie but i am so utterly gobsmacked at your post that I am unsure a reply would achieve anything.
But I need to try...

'With respect crazy, do you really are about oher peoples children generally ?'

Yes. is that a really odd thing to do, then?

'I used, wanted every baby in the world to be as lucky as mine and then you realise that they can't be because of the free will of the parents.'

oh and the fact that not everyone gets the same opportunities, of course...no matter how much their parents love them...or don't you believe that there is inequality in our society?

'Xenia isn't trampling on anybody to get to the top she's giving her kids a leg up in life which is all any of us do when we pay for swimming lessons, read to them, take them on a holiday somewhere nice.'

Yes, how true - but her whole attitude is that she and her children deserve so much more than everyone else. Probably you included. That's what appals me.

'The point she made about her sister cleaning is that her sister can turn her hand to whatever she has to do to survive, could you go and get a £50k job ?'

Er - probably, as much chance as anyone else - I went to a good school, got 9 gcses, 3 a levels, our school was among the top 2% of those in the state sector and I have an IQ of 135. So yes, probably - what has that got to do with anything?

'From my experience state school kids tend to be more spoilt and demanding and less resourceful anyway, so unless you've seen both sides it's wrong to critise either'

This is just a load of utter SHIT, with respect. Broaden your horizons. How dare you insult the majority of children in this country like that?

I have known/met children in both sectors, mine are currently in a state school however the children in private school parents spent their money more wisely, less tat, less sweets and their children were nicer kids as a result, my observations nothing else.

As for your other comments we've had debates on here over and over about how much thought some people put into having children, how many babies are accidents.
None of mine were because I want them to have every opportunity available to them, I can't provide what xenia can but because each child was considered BEFORE popping another out I know that I am at least making choices not just allowing life to happen to me and my children which is what far too many people do.

Custardo, the teachers, junior doctors, social workers with get up and go do earn £50k a year, not saying they are necessarily the best at what they do but they are the ones with a rocket up their arses who make things happen.
Become consultants, head teachers etc etc.
We can all sit around and list a thousand reasons why we can't do x, y and z, when you start looking for the reason why you can then things change for you.

Sorry Katie but that is avoiding many of the valid points put already

it is nOT possible for everyone to earn that amount however hard they try

This is tory politics gone mad

of course it's poor people#s own fault if they are poor

Of course it is

so teachers that don't become head teachers - are..what? feckless, less driven, un morivated, can be arsed, poor examples?

Thats right custy. If they all tried hard enough there would be twenty headteachers per school and no ordinary class teachers.

Is that the model you are idealising Katie?

I don't think I've ever said I deserve anything more than anyone else. Where did I write that? You're just putting words into my mouth. Some people work hard and never get anywhere but on average those that work super hard whether as cleaners or doctors tend to earn more on average.

Yes, teachers don't earn much but my ex husband took on 30 pupils out of school and worked all summer holidays too in other work and worked on Sundays so surprise surprise he was earning a lot more than most teachers. My cleaner does a lot of different jobs and yes she earns more than many cleaners.

My brother decided to work a bit less and earn less money as a doctor. Most of us know the trade offs and make choices. The time my sister did cleaning she was chose to be in a religious cult and opt out for a bit, perfectly legitimate choice but obviously it has an impact on your income. Although she got back into work again.

Private schools can give children resources, ability to work under their own initiative, physical strength through sports, moral fibre etc - didn't we build our empire through them , respected the world over and women who can earn enough to pay those fees probably do benefit their children over all. As do women who also give children an example of hard work or being nice and treating people well etc etc. Education is obviously just one thing you give a child. No point in getting in a state about it if you can't afford it or just have rubbishy local state schools and no choice evne of a good state one although you could get on yoru bike and move to an area with better schools of course as people do every day when they move out of London as soon as their children hit 11 years unless they are able to afford schools in London and pay fees.