To be so sick of anyone who earns a 'decent' wage being demonised by those who don't?

[sickofthis]

OK, I am very probably REALLY going to regret this, but it is getting to me, the number of threads at the moment that seem to think if anyone earns a decent wage (over £50K) they are somehow responsible for the downfall of the economy and are greedy etc.,

It's cobblers.

The truth of the matter is the housing market has grown too far too fast and too many people have borrowed beyond their means on the back of thier houses (which now aren't worth what they thought they were)

Yes, some banks took too many risks and are paying the price but this does not mean ALL bankers are greedy, horrid people. Just like all property developers (who, by the way, have made lots of money from the property boom) aren't either.

But, some people took far too many personal risks to buy material stuff they didn't need. That makes them JUST as culpable.

The housing market needs to cool off. When ordinary good people can't buy a reasonable house, there is something wrong with the pricing strategy and, one way or another, it's going to be corrected.

Interesting article

^By sickofthis on Tue 02-Dec-08 21:09:11

Why is it so difficult to explain that, if you DO happen to earn £200k (or similar, that's just an example) you are expected to dress and act accordingly so your expenses are naturally higher.

Bear with me: You turn up at your bank... How do you expect to see the manager? In a hoodie? Saying: 'Att, att, att, att... Nuh Wha I mean???? ack ack ack?' Again, it's just an example, but we expect different things from people and it's unfair to expect people who earn that sort of money to have the same expenses as some one who works in Tescos (yet another example)

I don't earn a fraction of £200k but I have also never said ' Att, Nuh, Wha nor Ack, I don't wear 'hoodies' I have a very good relationship with my bank manager as I live within my means and so never have to 'act or dress accordingly' to make any impression with him

I also don't care what my neighbours/friends income might be, as I happen to be too busy living my life to judge other people

Thank fuck i'm poor

Well Mamaz has managed to sum up precisely why there might be some ill feeling on Mumsnet towards people who earn more.

As for Custardo - "ofcourse the people who make that kind of money have a skill - its called lucky bastard skill it doesn't make you better, or work harder or more educated than anyone else." You've hit the nail on the head perfectly. Let that be the end of the debate.

I don't put it down to luck much, tbh. And there is a correlation between working hard and earning more. I'm not talking about the type of backbreaking work undertaken by unskilled people, btw.

And if you do believe in luck, then there is also that saying, "you make your own luck".

It's naive to put everything down to luck and a poor lesson for your children.

amerryscot on Wed 03-Dec-08 06:21:38
"I don't put it down to luck much, tbh. And there is a correlation between working hard and earning more. I'm not talking about the type of backbreaking work undertaken by unskilled people, btw."

FYI not all intellectual or highly skilled work is well paid.

Personally I have no problem with the fact that dh and I are doing highly qualified work- requiring many years of higher education and many years of unremunerated overwork to gain qualifications- for no more than the average wage. I chose it, it's fun and I will be leaving something for posterity; I'm happy with this.

But I do get bored with the constant suggestions on Mumsnet that we must be either lazy or unskilled if we are not earning pots of money. Since when does a PhD and a long list of publications not involve working hard?

I would get quite angry with this if I was someone who spent my life saving other people's lives or making a big difference to society. Plenty of people do, working horrendously long hours, and still don't get paid much. And thankfully, nurses and paramedics, or even teachers, are very far from unskilled.

I think the prevailing culture on Mumsnet is that if you are doing white collar work, then you are not working hard. Not the other way around.

If you make a career choice to go for something that is low paid, then fine. But is is wrong to bleat about it, and say that it is not fair (not that you are, Cory - but many others are).

I have a modest salary and I tend to think that anyone who earns more than me probably works for every penny. I made the choice to go for less money and a better work-life balance. I am not stamping my feet and complaining that somehow I deserve more (I don't, even though I am in a valued and morally robust profession). I entered this career with my eyes open.

The link on the article above from the Guardian (about the (very few nurses) who earn £100k a year) says it is now proved that the bankers who earned a lot weren't "worth that" because the markets crashed. I don't agree. I think they were worth what they were when they had jobs and many still have jobs and there are a good few doing very good business at the market - it's a great time to be selling and buying because for once there are huge market movements. Easy to get it wrong but also easier to make a lot and there is quite a bit of turnover and buying and selling going on. They remain worth what anyone will pay for them. Same with me - I work for myself. If I were no good we'd starve. We eat what I kill.

Work smart not necessarily hard of course. Better to be the party entertainer on £200 for a Saturday afternoon than the class room assistant who works hard all week for a pittance.

And hard work does come into it. I have had periods when I've worked very hard and probably harder than many people who do what I do, may be twice as hard at times and surprise surprise I've earned twice as much at those times. I prefer not to be too busy of course but sometimes it's necessary. Recently I've had to do a 5am - 7am session of work here at home before going out for the day on some other work. That's obviously not so nice as having a little less on but not all women would get themselves up at that time. Some will though - you get the women who work really hard with many cleaning and bar jobs and they are indeed up at 5am cleaning for pay and those with the 4 cleaning jobs obviously earn a lot more than those who wouldn't dream of getting out of bed 2 hours before the children are up to clean.

couln't of guaranteed Xenia would show with her usual tosh.
Back to the kitchen a la 1880 for me.

although I am nosy about Xenia's daughter - what entry level job pays £60K???
One you get via 'connections'?

You are not being unreasonable to be cross if people somehow hate you for having a good wage, it is jealousy - understandable - hell I will freely admit I am jealous as hell of those of you who earn £50,000 or £100,000 or more. it's not easy for people to admit they are just plain green with envy, so they look for reasons why they can have a go! Plus nobody thinks other people deserve more than them, for a job that doesn't seem more 'worthwhile' do they? we're just flawed, frail, normal human beings.

However, there are people who look down on others they perceive as being 'less' than them, and one of the criteria they use for that is wealth. And that is just as awful.

When you think about it, human beings can be pretty bloody rotten to each other

I haven't got a massive complaint with bankers and business men being paid fairly high wages; there is, I suppose, a certain amount of risk-taking involved.

Have also no complaint with people doing the fun stuff (such as myself ) getting paid rather less. There are definite compensations.

But some people have to do work that is hard and badly paid and emotionally and intellectually draining, all at once. Because society needs it. No point in muttering that they should have made smarter career choices: we all should be thankful that they haven't. I wouldn't be happy to feel that my heart attack was in the hands of lazy and unqualified people.

I have to say I was very impressed with how hard the nurses and midwives worked when I was on the antenatal ward; there were times when I wanted to jump off my bed and go "no, you sit down and rest and let me do that!".

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves.
You don't know hat struggling means, that's why it is so annoying.
I think people on benefits/low paid work are demonized by the whole of society, and you are getting upset about a few posts on an internet forum.
Bankers go into banking to earn money, there is no other motivation. Maybe that's why it is easy to label then greedy, esp when there are so many people working on a lower wage/voluntarily doing so much more to improve people's lives

I agree with OP and get fed up with the assumption that anyone who earns over the average wage has had no experience of struggling. Most of us with graduate and especially post graduate qualifications have lived well below benefit level for years.

Some people with post graduate qualifications continue struggling, wahwah.

And there is a big difference between struggling for a few years while you are still young and without dependents and struggling while you are bringing up a family.

I found living off pot noodles and reusing tea bags a romantic and stimulating experience as a PhD student. I bet I wouldn't think that if I was trying to bring up young children on an inadequate diet.

just posted this on the other thread and realised it is relevant here too:
cory on Wed 03-Dec-08 09:33:09
One reason I decided to stay at home part-time to be available for disabled dd was not because I have superior nurturing qualities, but because I am better educated than dh. Therefore better able to be her advocate, to conduct the appeals needed to get her an education, to attend endless medical appointments and negotiate with the medical profession, to deal with those professionals who kept telling us that her problems were due to social dysfunction, not a physical condition. I have good reason to believe that if I had not had those skills (strongly related to my university education), dd might well have been taken into care and would almost certainly have been left in a school where she could not access the classrooms. It has happened to others. Looking after a disabled child can be highly qualified work. It's just not highly paid.

What MrsRuffalo said

Mumsnet is riddled with inconsistencies. It's not OK to ask Mumsnet whether £150 is enough to feed a family of 6, but it is OK to ask Mumsnet whether you should buy the £175 puffball dress or the £275 one from DVF.

MrsRuffalo I'm not sure people go into caring or cleaning professions because they care about people any more than anyone else or because they especially like cleaning. Most often they do it because they are not qualified to do anything else.

You are right Swedes. Someone really ought to lay down some rules.

Actually I think the problem only arises when people bleat about not having enough money. There was a perfectly civilised thread recently started by someone who was having trouble living within their £106,000 household income. Because they asked nicely for advice instead of whingeing about feeling poor or paying too much tax, the responses were without exception helpful and polite.

"an extra 5% tax to pay for others who don't work so hard."

Oh dear. AFAIC you have just lost all my sympathy.

Most people work, we all beleive we work hard, no-one wants to be poor. There is an element of luck in everything, and failing to admit that, by beleiving that a huge salary and a wealthy lifestyle is your god-given right is what makes people cross in this debate.

No-one 'deserves' to be poor. No-one 'deserves' to be rich. Be grateful FFS!

needmore coffee - trainee solicitors in the city get 60k and no 'connections' won't get you in.
A degree in law or another good subject to at least 2.1 standard form a Russell group Uni will get you an interview.
My DH recriuts for his firm and generally gets 3-4 applicants for each position. He turns down anyone who doesn't have a personlaity and isn't a grafter.
Who and what Daddy does won't get your toe in the door.

Litchick - I was thinking city firm trainee solicitor too - but entry salary for trainees isn't as high as £60k. Have just had a look at a few magic circle city firm trainee websites -
it's £60k on qualifying, high £30s and early £40s as a trainee. Agree that Russell Group or even better Oxbridge degrees would get you an interview. But IME of a top provincial law firm connections can help get a foot in the door via vacation placement schemes.

I don't think high earners are demonised on this site. People who whine - with a complete lack of irony or any kind of self-consciousness - about how hard their lives are because they don't have any pocket money to spend after they've paid their bills and mortgage, etc. need to get a grip. Because there are people here who can't even do that. It's about compassion and empathy. And frankly, the person who has to strain every nerve just to get through the week does deserve more sympathy than someone who has to forgo some new clothes for a few months. I'm not saying that we can't all, in our relative circumstances, have a little moan about things. But it might be nice is some people did their moaning with a little more thought. My two pence.

yes pent

High-earners aren't demonised

Whining high earners need a slap though

Mumsnet don't demonise people who are high earners within the caring professions.