To think that all those generations of women who battled for equality for women have actually achieved nothing!

[flixx]

All that has changed is that women are now expected to go out and work and well as still being souly responsible for the vast majority of domestic stuff and childcare.

Womens lives aren't better or easier, infact they are now so complicated that half of us are so stressed and knackered we don't even remember who we are anymore.

The role of a mother is less valued by society than it has ever been when we all know that it truely is THE hardest job ever.

Wilfsell, who is saying that housework and care is irrelevant? It's not irrelevant but since the beginning of time (or at least homo sapiens) it's just something that happens. Now we feel the need to put a "cost" on it.

I agree that the taxation systm used to give extra allowances for spouse and kids, and it is a traversty that this is no longer the case in the UK.

But women have always worked. Even back to cave man days they had responsibilities. The difference nowadays as I see it, is that you can't fall back necessarily on the family/community to help out with the kids and have to pay for it instead.

That's an interesting observation Soapy. We've cut around 5% overall but the balance roughly reflected the gender balance in the firm.

It is finding that man Xenia, that's a big problem!! A man who earns not a lot less than you and not a lot more, and who will do 50% of the housework, willingly, and understand WHY that goes without saying!

Of course, if one doesn't find a man who is good-humoured, decent, modern but well-mannered of course, well-paid but not too well-paid, handsome, well-educated, but not more than you are... IF you don't find that man, maybe you don't have children........?????????????

And that would be the ultimate sacrafice for many women.

An Island wouldn't console me if I had no children. (After it was too late iykwim) Although a good career would be a needed distraction.

weird- I don't watch television either! Definitely not self-sacrificing- I think it's a load of tosh

If you said no internet, I would gasp in horror though.

Well- how would we be posting?

A number of posters are using 'that's the way it's always been' as an argument. It doesn't really cut the mustard though does it? Some long-term customs are Good. Some are Bad. Some recent innovations are Good. Some are Bad. This is about as far as that line of thinking will take you.

More relevantly, child-rearing is something that, historically, has been a female pursuit. I'm surprised that a thread about feminism is struggling to see the connection between this fact and the related fact that child-rearing is an activity that is regarded as worthless/something to be pursued in one's spare time/no great achievement. Come on ladies! These two perceptions are related.

Any modern conception of feminism must not only fight for women's rights to be employed in any field they choose; it must also fight for the right of women's work in the domestic sphere to be acknowledged for the significant, valuable labour that it is.

that's what i've been trying to say for 2 days pw.

It's been said a fair few times actually. I said myself about 30 posts back that people are allowed to be women. Women have the children, which is not some trivial pedicure they skive off work for, it is the perpetuation of the species. They don't demand to be rewarded for this 'honour' but nor should they be penalised.

If nobody had children, because they all put their career/money/whatever before having a child, where would we be in fifty years.

So, affordable childcare to support the women who choose to go back to work and for whom it is financially practical. More recognition and respect for the the role of motherhood.

And and understanding that feminism is not about dictating to women that they must be like men or they're fools or inferior. Feminism was always supposed to be about women ALSO having the right to make their own decisions.

But to make society value that kind of work we need to make men feel 50% responsible for it.

Yes. HOW do we do that? Is it enforcible? I remember years ago when I was living in Spain there was some move to try and make Spanish men do more housework. There were ads on tv to provoke men to think about their partners' workload at home. I don't know how you would control what goes on in people's homes though. WORTH trying to MAKE them feel mroe responsible.

Sorry to generalise men by refering to them as 'them'!

LOL daftpunk - not quite what you were saying I think! At least in the beginning you were quite clear that the historical position which pw describes should be maintained and that a woman's place is in the home ...

If we had a decent tax break on childcare then each parent would take money out of their salary so they could each get the tax benefits. This would at least go some way to preventing that feeling that only the woman's salary is eroded by childcare costs.

Sorry NewsMonger, you did say something along those lines.

daftpunk, to be fair, you have also been saying that women with children should not work outside the home, which is ridiculous!

I think men will learn to value this sort of labour in the same way that our capitalist society learns to value most sorts of labour - when it is remunerated.

oh DPunk you have been opining about working mums,suggesting being deluded if happy with job and nursery care summat about too good to be true....

i just think it's a bit,... oh i dont know..odd? that a woman would rather be at work than with her children, esp when they are very young....i don't envy any woman that's made it big professionally, dont care how many islands they have..i'm quite happy with my little life, maybe i'm the strongest, most liberated woman on this thread?

... or maybe daftpunk, you are a troll?

or maybe if it seems too good to be true it is....

blueshoes..i've been on mn for over a year!

Daftpunk you have been very inconsistent and contradictory in the views you have been posting.

Believe me I am glad you are happy with your position. That's great.

I'm surprised though that you don't see that other people might be equally happy with the choices they have made in their lives - notwithstanding the fact that their choices are different from yours. You seem quite dogmatic.

dp as i said when i got pg i was solvent,working FT,had a mortgage.why give that up because i had a baby.it isnt a giving things up competition to be martyr mum

... sheesh, daftpunk, you haven't picked up very much in a year. I am not sure what is the value of mn to you since you seem to have decided to close your mind.

ok, will leave the thread.

dp x

Oh dp don't leave - I think you are quite sweet really if a little misguided ...

I think it's absolutely great that you are happy at home and respect your choice wholeheartedly.

But it is very important to acknowledge that it is a choice that you have, that you shouldn't be expected to make it by virtue of your sex and that other women's choices are equally valid.

Length of time on mn is no indicator of trollishness.
DP you and I have argued before- you only accept your personal worldview, and enjoy a ruck far too much. You simply cannot take on board other people's arguments.