To think that all those generations of women who battled for equality for women have actually achieved nothing!

[flixx]

All that has changed is that women are now expected to go out and work and well as still being souly responsible for the vast majority of domestic stuff and childcare.

Womens lives aren't better or easier, infact they are now so complicated that half of us are so stressed and knackered we don't even remember who we are anymore.

The role of a mother is less valued by society than it has ever been when we all know that it truely is THE hardest job ever.

your right blueshoes, i have never been inside a nursery, i only go on what i read and hear.

Paris Hilton is a source of much mockery in our household and is not a rolemodel for my daughter. Thank you very much. My daughter has brains as well as looks .

Back to Daftpunk's world where women only work for low wages and shouldn't really work at all - well you know it ain't necessarily true that women only work for low wages. There is a world where women too can earn high wages. Let me introduce you to England in 2008.

But at least Paris Hilton is feminine

Hey Daftpunk - your views are a'changing on this thread. Which is good.

Early on you posted that childcare was always the responsibility of women. Now you are acknowledging that men have a role beyond impregnation and earning.

lol, well you know i've been surprised at how many of you are well cool about your situation, fab jobs, brilliant childcare, not stressed out...wouldn't stay at home even if you were paid.

when things seem too good to be true..they usually are.

Ignore my facetious comment about Paris Hilton.

Pepa, you have raised a very important point. I think this whole reality TV sleb culture is very insidious and to the extent lots of young girls are idolising WAGs, rich heiresses, rock chicks, daughters of aging rock stars, supermodels etc in the media as role models, it represents a set back for feminism.

I do hope my dd aspires to more than that.

Daftpunk, for people who go out and exercise their choices wisely (and with a little luck), they can and do end up with situations which they are happy with by and large. It is not too good to be true. It is called self-determinism, a legacy of our feminism gains.

Daft, you are welcome to CAT me and visit to audit my job/children/husband. I am actually peturbed that you think that a world where women work and are well-paid and enjoy their jobs is unbelievable. It is reality for many women.

Got to dash - work-related team panic on something. Daft, I meant what I said, you are welcome to come and visit.

I am blardy sad that you can't see that there's a world of opportunity out there for any thinking woman.

gotta run too

quattro/anniemac/blueshoes...it's been so nice chatting with you, i'm not really as silly as i come across on here...i mean well.

hope we meet up on other threads..

thnks blueshoes but I think this thread will continue just to be a rehash of the WOHM vs SAHM argument...instead of what happened to the feminist movement...

Haven't read thread but just would like to add my List of What Women Have Campaigned For and Achieved that Makes Most of Us Have More Choices. Capitalized. Lest We Forget...

-the Vote
-equal rights of access to education
-the right to own property in our own right
-the right to divorce rather than just be divorced and left destitute
-pension rights and National Insurances for homemakers/mothers out of the labour market
-equality legislation and protection at work
-the right to(if not yet the practice of) equal pay for equal work
-legal protection (if not actual freedom) from sexual harassment, rape and domestic violence
-maternity provision in the welfare system, maternity and paternity leave
-contraception
-abortion
-greater choice in childbirth and maternity services

There are many many things women campaigners (not all of them calling themselves feminists) have made a difference to, most only in the second half of the twentieth century. We shouldn't have memories that are too short or selective.

I think the key for me is nothing to do with what is best for children, the SAHM/WOHM debate etc... (these are important of course) but to recognise that feminist debate has systematically attempted to free women from financial dependence. It has succeeded in some respects; it has not yet succeeded in others. I'm less concerned with whether mothers, fathers or carers are 'best' to look after children. I'm more concerned with a society obsessed with the notion that having children is an individual choice and not a social need/responsibility. To really free women from dependence the notion that caring is a proper part of society needs to be fully accounted for, and not just left to individual whim.

WilfSell - the list is impressive but also concerning when you realise just how many of these topics are still underthreat in many "developed" countries of the world, namely the last 4 points in your list.

• maternity provision: little to non-existent in US could be alot better in UK

-contraception: Where you have to pay for perscriptions (Canada US) this can be cost prohibitive. -abortion - lets just not open that can of worms.... -greater choice in childbirth and maternity services - little or no choice in many places.

Still lots to fight for !

DP why cant you believe women can have paid employment,good childcare.why make whimsy comments

for me,this didnt just happen some stroke of luck. it was planned, paid for,and the result of the years i have spent studying meant i was fortunate position of doing a job i love

no one handed this to me on a plate

How far do you want to look back?

After marriage my mother stayed home until the youngest child was 12. I managed to have the first 5 years with my child, before economics kicked in. My daughter had one year at home with her child.
However I bought my own house at 30,worked abroad, and got to know myself. Something my mother would dearly loved to have done.
My father did heavy houshold jobs, my husband -very little, but my dughters partner shares everything with her.

Swings and roundabouts? I suspect that every generation has different types of partnerships. But in the big wide world of employment I think women have a much better deal than 25 years ago.

When my mother (in the 1970s) told her employers that she was three months pregnant, and would be leaving in a few months, they fired her on the spot. When my eldest DB was born, my father wasn't in the room and the day they took DB home, DF went back to work leaving DM with the child. There was no such thing as paternity, and very little expectation of fathers to be involved. That is a lot of progress.

However, recently I was at a "women in business" type breakfast, and one woman (early/mid 30s?) piped up with "Well, men aren't affected by having children at all. They can just carry on regardless". I was

Why were you shocked, Clarabella? A lot of men's careers aren't affected by having children. Which is great. Just wish it was true for most women too.

scottishmummy;

i'm not sure why i think the way i do? (upbringing probably)...for me i would just find it all to much to deal with i guess.

.....quattro..what does "cat me" mean?

Just read the first thread. I earn a fortune. I bought myself an island. I have five gorgeous children. I have a career which is hugely satisfying and a very rounded social life and hobbies. I have massively benefited from all those women who fought to get me the vote, the right to own property.

I was reading about women in Saudi the other day. Imagine not being allowed out without a chaperone - that was the life of some women in the UK in Victorian England at least the unmarried ones just like in some other countries still today. Imagine that if your word counded for only half what a man said in court - that's the law in some muslim countries today. Imagine if your husband automatically got all custody of the children as is teh case once the children are over a certain age in some countries and was the case in the UK 150 years ago.

If you do all the cleaning and the work then you're an idito and should ensure you achieve an equitable balance of work and household chores at home. Marry a sexist man and you will always rue the day. The sensible avoid them like the plague. We need more women working, more women in higher paid careers and then things will start to equalise a bit more. And many many more women saying I really enjoy being a surgeon, MP, accountant, or whatever the job is - I love it, I have children too and I'm happy and love it. There are loads of us out there but only the whingers tend to comment.

While I am by no means on the same page as daftpunk on most of what is said here, there is an element of truth to some of it. Some pretty sweeping generalisations have been made on the contrary argument imo ...

For example, this notion that women can have it all. I never know what is meant by this? By definition no one can have it all. There will always be choices and compromises along the way. If what is meant is that women can work and raise families then yes by all means. But it isn't quite as easy in practice as some have suggested here. There is a lot of hard work that goes into making it possible and your particular circumstances (financial, sn children, partner support to name but a few) will have a bearing on that too.

I also think that while there is a "world of opportunity" available to women, it is not necessarily available to all women in the same way. Some might not have the background or education or (whispers) intellectual ability to take on such high-paid jobs as the one Quattro has. Some might - for perfectly acceptable non-sexist reasons - not aspire to such a job or temperament for it. Some might have a vocation for a job that is not rewarded so well.

As a result the compromises that such women may have to make on childcare may not be acceptable to them. I have a very high paid job but I have found childcare of the quality acceptable to me very expensive indeed. It has not been easy and I can easily imagine that some who earn less well could really struggle and the choices they would have to make would be much more difficult.

Xenia, I don't always agree with what you say - but in this case - well said! Though I do have to add the caveat that I honestly don't believe you can have it all. To have done so well in your career, you must have made sacrifices elsewhere.

I don't mean by that your children have "suffered" but you, at the very least, must have missed out on things that other mums on here hold dear. If you're happy and your family is happy, then that is fantastic. But you surely understand your life would not work for everyone.