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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not allow ds2 to have mmr jab?

862 replies

TheLadyEvenstar · 28/11/2008 22:40

I don't think I am, after ds1 had it i noticed a major difference in his behaviour and don't want to go through it again,

OP posts:
thumbElf · 10/12/2008 14:00

ahfeckit, you should maybe take your own advice then - calling people selfish across the board without having the courtesy to read their reasons why is pretty rude in itself. I am not "slagging you off" - just pointing out the inconsistency here.

pagwatch · 10/12/2008 14:03

ahfeckit
I have to agree
It is a little obscure for you to turn up on a thread calling people selfish when you clearly have no idea whatthey weretalking about - and then start saying that you are being picked on and people should be couteous.

You do see that that is ridiculous don't you.

ahfeckit · 10/12/2008 14:08

I have apologised for my comments earlier, can you not just forgive folk and move on???? Really, you are taking it a bit far folks. Sorry for any offence, but I don't intend to read the whole thread, as many others admit to this aswell when they post on a thread. There's no point getting upset over it, life's too short.

ahfeckit · 10/12/2008 14:10

but I was aware it was about the MMR Jab, I read OP statement, so yes, I was aware what it was about. if you are genuinely not happy with people posting randomly on threads (when they haven't read the whole thing) then you'll have a lot of folk to complain about on any discussion board. I'm not the first to have done this.

Beachcomber · 10/12/2008 14:18

Ahfeckit, I meant the "I'm alright Jack" comment in the context of vaccination, which is what this discussion is about.

I was (perhaps incorrectly) assuming that your children are not vaccine damaged (indeed I very much hope they are not). I was not assuming that all is a bed of roses in every aspect of life chez the feckits.

pagwatch · 10/12/2008 14:26

yes you are right.
can't stop people too lazy to read it from posting uninformed opinionated bollocks. Tis the joy of mumsnet.

ahfeckit · 10/12/2008 14:34

you are right pagwatch, sadly I don't know every single detail about the MMR and all the recent research but I'm willing to bet that every other person who posted isn't up to full speed on this research either (besides folk that have a personal interest in it if they have family affected by it)...
anyway, moving on...

pagwatch · 10/12/2008 14:47

I love your logic
if you want to move on then...ummm....move on. I promise I won't try and stop you.

Of course you can post on a subject about which you clearly know little. Of course you can do that.

But what you can't do is then tell others how to react to that.

You are free to post what you want. But I am free to post back that you have no idea what you are talking about.
And saying you have no idea what you are talking about but wish others to respect your views is a little optomistic really.

ladylush · 10/12/2008 15:29

Pagwatch - love the analogy of the pissed bloke stumbling into a room full of people trying to talk
Beachcomber - agree with all you say wrt pharma companies.
Thumbelf - what's the statin issue? Am a MH nurse, so not up to speed with physical health drugs. Have an interest in this though as a lot of diabetic patients (lots of MH patients are diabetic) are routinely px statins. MIL also diabetic and on a statin.

thumbElf · 10/12/2008 15:47

ladylush, there are some rumblings about the potential overuse of statins and their side-effects. Statins mostly work by blocking production of cholesterol in the body, but where they block the production pathway, they are also blocking the production of coenzyme Q10, an enzyme particularly necessary for mitochondrial energy production in muscles, the most important of which could be said to be the heart! So many statins also block the production of CoQ10 and this creates a risk of muscle fatigue - problematic when it is the heart.

The companies that produce statins have known about this side-effect since the late 1980s but choose not to do anything about it, like include CoQ10 in the pills, or advise co-prescription of CoQ10 with statins. And they keep randomly (it appears to me) reducing the "safe" cholesterol levels in the body; absolute levels of cholesterol are not a useful indicator of CVD except in familial hypercholesterolaemia, the ratio between LDL and HDL is far more important. Cholesterol is essential for maintenance of the integrity of all our cell walls - having cholesterol levels that are too low is dangerous. Pre-menopausal women should not be on statins routinely because cholesterol is the building block for the steroid hormones (most female hormones and testosterone, among others).

So, as they keep reducing the "normal" level of cholesterol, more people look like they need to be on statins for longer, which may contribute to weakened heart muscle. There are some doctors who are "on to" this and have written in the BMJ about it, but the general opinion is that statins are more beneficial than otherwise. It has been suggested as well that some of the RCT drug trials were slightly skewed, in that the outcome looked for was "does this drug reduce total serum cholesterol" - answer = yes. When perhaps what they should have asked was "does this drug help prevent CVD/ heart attacks/ strokes?" - answer = less clear.

sorry for essay-style post!

ladylush · 10/12/2008 15:55

Thanks Thumbelf - very intersting. If the statin blocks the Q-10, would including it in the statin be effective?

thumbElf · 10/12/2008 15:57

yes, cos it blocks the body's own production of coQ10, not its effect.

ladylush · 10/12/2008 15:59

Ah I see

thumbElf · 10/12/2008 16:00

the biochemical pathway to make cholesterol and co Q10 is the same one until about the last 3 steps, when it splits to make EITHER cholesterol OR CoQ10. Thus, if we could persuade our bods to make more CoQ10, they would make less cholesterol - the thing that islikely to drive this is increased requirement for coQ10 - i.e. increased need for muscle energu - i.e. more exercise! Which, in all real trials on preventing CVD and heart dx, has the biggest effect on outcome. Dietary change and drug intervention by themselves can achieve some change, but exercise makes all the difference.

ladylush · 10/12/2008 16:01

An interesting spelling of interesting I do actually have an English degree. It's frightening isn't it!!!

thumbElf · 10/12/2008 16:02

ha, you think that's bad - I'm talking about energu, not energy! Plus my apostrophe is a bit reluctant so has to be hit quite hard to make sure it types...

jimjamshaslefttheyurt · 10/12/2008 16:04

Ah that's interesting. My dad has high cholesterol (familial) which he has controlled reasonably well through diet for years. He came under a lot of pressure to try statins (although actually it's his HDL levels that are particularly high, not LDL) but has so far managed to refuse them.

I'll tell him about the CoQ10 stuff in case he ever does get put on them.

ladylush · 10/12/2008 16:06

Well at least that is a positive and active change that people can make in their lives rather than popping a pill. Mind you, a lot of the diabetic pts I know who are on statins do not manage their diet well and generally do not exercise either. It's hard for them to feel motivated to do so because the negative effects of their illness (e.g schizophrenia) make them feel low in mood and lethargic. Then a poor diet and no exercise exacerbates the problem.

ruty · 10/12/2008 16:09

Right. My father has been on statins for 2 years and since then has been suffering fatigue, depression and muscle cramps. Always thought it was linked to my mum's death but now wondering if CoQ10 part of problem. Can supplemenation really help? Can body absorb CoQ10 as a supplement?

ladylush · 10/12/2008 16:15

A colleage was put on simvastatin and got shooting pains in her leg. She went back to the G.P, who changed it to another statin. Problem went. Now, I wonder if some deplete Q10 levels more than others or whether her particular side effect had nothing to do with Q10 deficiency.

Thumbelf, what field do you work in? Very impressed with your knowledge [in awe emoticon]

thumbElf · 10/12/2008 16:25

ruty, coQ10 can be absorbed as a supplement and is easily available in health food shops.

ladylush, i have a varied background! food science, immunology, haematology, nutrition and lecturing all feature. Plus sub-editing professional nutrition journal. I had to do some hefty research on the biochemical pathways for coQ10 when someone wrote a (fairly poor) article on it. I kept my Mum and Dad off statins because of it. When Dad's GP remonstrated, I emailed Dad the biochemical pathway and explanation I have just given you to give to the GP - GP shut up!

I think the statins do have different levels of effect, and I believe there are a few (very few and I don't know their names) that block the production pathway after the split, thus not affecting coQ10 production at all.

ladylush · 10/12/2008 17:10

Hmm, that is interesting. So maybe my ex-colleague was px one that doesn't block the Q10

Your work sounds very interesting. Do you enjoy it?

thumbElf · 10/12/2008 17:32

very much - somewhere down the line I think I missed my vocation but I would never have made it as a standard medic. Doing what I do now is much better!

ladylush · 10/12/2008 17:45

I agree that your talents are probably better utilised in your job than it would be in medicine. Too much politics in medicine.

ruty · 10/12/2008 18:52

thanks for the info thumbelf.

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