to not allow ds2 to have mmr jab?

[TheLadyEvenstar]

I don't think I am, after ds1 had it i noticed a major difference in his behaviour and don't want to go through it again,

mismatch? hotchpotch

There is quite a bit of evidence that MMR triggers regression & even autism in a small number of children. Google jimjam or yurt for related research documents.

We need research that will identify which children are vulnerable and spare them the MMR.

barnsleybell- autism a behavioural condition???

I suggest you have NEVER met a severely autistic non-verbal 9 year old. To describe it as a behavioural condition is like describing an amputation as a limp.

And yes if your sister is high functioning enough to be described as having a behavioural condition then it is likely she has had it since birth. As in most cases of AS there is a very large hertiable element and many genes involved. This is not the case for autism that comes following a regression or is a simplex cases (single case in a family with other make children). In those cases it seems that one gene is involved with an environmental impact. Which might be various things- but in the main seems to affect the immune system.

The NHS won't pay for the single vaccines because it can't afford to give the single vaccines to everyone and because if they were to offer a more expensive, more time-consuming alternative then peole would think that the were admitting that there was something wrong with the MMR. When there isn't.

One of Jackaroo's links again, a scientific paper reviewing all evidence and concluding:
"It has been suggested that vaccination with the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine causes autism... The hypothesis has been subjected to critical evaluation in many different ways, using techniques from molecular biology to population-based epidemiology, and with a vast number of independent researchers involved, none of which has been able to corroborate the hypothesis."

Herd immunity is needed precisely because vaccinations are not 100% effective. If enough people are immunised then the disease doesn't have enough hosts and can't spread. If a group of people decide not to get vaccinated, then there is a pool of hosts for the disease, and it can spread and infect the unlucky people who were responsible enough to have the vaccine but unfortunately didn't develop immunity.

Exactly cote.

I can't type today other male children. There is lots of work going on in this in the States. Lots of work looking at environmental factors. And there seem to be many. Lots of interesting stuff about how something like a viral infection in pregnancy can predispose the fetus to regression following a second trigger in early life (and in one talk vaccinations were put forward as one potential trigger). This doesn't mean all autism is environmentally triggered, anymore than the fact that AS seems to run through a lot of families means that every case of autism is 'genetic'.

Anyway from the comfort of thinking that autism is a beavioural condition it might seem like a simple choice between autism and measles. From the reality of years living with severe autism it simply isn't that simple. As evidence by my mother. Left death in one ear following measles (so yes she knows what measles can do, she was very ill with it), when asked will say 'don't you give those boys MMR'.

jimjams... Please do not choose to tell me who i have and have not met, you know nothing of my life..
I do choose to describe in detail my sisters condition out of respect for her and my family...
I am simply saying that once my children were born i chose to make the decsion based on scientific evidence.

That paper was from 2004. Most of the literature it reviewed, actually all hasn;t considered whether MMR triggers autism in a subset of the autistic population. Which is Wakefield's hypothesis. It has tested whether MMR has caused the rise in autism. No-one is suggesting it has.

Also interesting to note they mention no primate studies. They are now being done (at great cost - millions- funded by parents). Preliminary results are showing some problems with the vaccinated primates.

Well you haven't made it on scientific evidence. You've made it on papers that haven't tested Wakefield's hypothesis.

If you describe autism as a behavioural condition then you have not come across the sort of autism my son has. That is a fact.

I find that a dangerous untruth. It doesn't begin to describe what he lives with.

Trillian- they also need accurate measures of efficacy. Which they don't have. The effectiveness of mumps for example was over-estimated, which has led to the ridiculous situation where adults are now getting mumps.

Had the effectiveness of the mumps vaccination been properly understood it is my belief that it wouldn't have been introduced as a mass vaccination.

The adults who are now getting mumps were children befpre the mumps vaccine was introduced as standard. (which is why a few years ago they were going round the university where I work getting all the 18, 19, and 20 year old students vaccinated against mumps).

The reason it is going around in the first place, so that adults are exposed to it, is because of the low take-up of MMR in recent years.

Your example precisely demonstrates my argument for why herd immunity is important.

I'm leaving now becuase I have to log into the work proxy internet thing to do some work and shouldn't be MNing where they can see.

The problem here is tha people are, understandably, much more easily persuaded by anecdotal evidence from friends and family than by scientific studies, which seem very cold and clinical and uncaring.

It all remind me of Richard Hammond doing his should I worry about episode on the MMR. He talked to a lot of scientists and they all said that there was no evidence that there was any reason not to have the MMR, but in the end he couldn't forget the worrying headlines. Luckily for his daughter, he decided to use the single jabs rather than forego immunisation entirely.

Good luck to all of you.

That's right. We don't understand scientific research because it is "cold and clinical"

Except trillian - quite a few of the young adults getting it have had MMR.

I'm not persuaded by anecdotal evidence. I do however like to take vaccination decisions based on the individual risk for my children, rather than the average risk for the population. I have no problem with scientific research being cold and clinical. I just don't pay much attention to papers that test the wrong hypothesis.

I am quite convinced that MMR (in terms of risk of triggering autism) is safe for the majority of children. I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees with that. But I'm not interested in most children. Most children can get a herpes infection without ending up severely autistic.

I have been on and off this thread since last night.

In summary are we saying that:

For the majority, the MMR appears safe.
For SOME children with allergies the singles may be safer.
Tbe point is to get some method of vacination, NOT none.
A few children may be sadly affected by MMR with an immune responce which is very rare but for a few has brought about autistic behaviours.
The singles don't ensure your child won't have a reaction but probably lesson the chance??????????????????????

I'm sorry, but I am so confussed after so much reading and thinking I thought trying to bring the converstaion together might help.

There isn't a paper out there yet that has tested Wakefield's hypothesis (that autism is triggered by the MMR in a small subgroup).

I will add (because it surprised me) that Richard Horton, Edictor of the Lancet who is no fan of Wakefield has said at the GMC hearings that the original Lancet paper was an excellent example of a case series, that this was an entirely appropriate methodology for reporting a new finding and that it 'still stands'.

Well I think there are children out there who shouldn't be vaccinated at all. And there are immunologists etc who will tell you the same. The difficulty is getting to see them.

Allergies aren't such a huge problem for the MMR, although might be worth taking into consideration. I'd worry more about family history of crohns or autoimmunity.

Please can I re-emphasise because I think this is important and poorly understood. Autism is not 'behaviours'. My 9 year old son is autistic- his method of processing the world is not the same. He cannot for instance understand streams of words (he understands nouns- nothing else in a sentence). He cannot think with language. This means his thoughts occur (probably- I have to guess) via pictures and smells. He does not remember in the same way as we do. This has advantages- he can remember things from 6 years ago with a cue. But he can't remember in order. He has no proper concept of time or the past. He cannot initiate movement very easily, and he very easily goes into muscle spasms when over-stimulated. Likewise he has very little impulse control. So if he sees a trigger (such as a strange arm) he will impulsively smell it for example. For a long time he couldn't perceive depth. His time problems are probably related to a malfunctioning body clock which means he spends months of the year on 3 or 4 hours sleep a night. He cannot feel pain properly and is covered in bruises from hitting his head, pinching his legs and arms and hitting his chest. His fingers are rough from being bitten.

His perceptual processing is affected enormously. He's not a child who is a bit socially aloof.

I bet he is wonderful though Jimjam.

Do you really think that avoiding MMR would make a hugh difference? If you could control all other virus, bugs, genetics, environmental factors then maybe, but in the same way Autism is on a vast spectrum, the factors which COULD cause Autism are equally so varied.

Goin back to generations past...the MAJOR difference is..

Children used to play outside and therefore built up an immune system having been subject to many different germs in the air.

There were not additives or preservatives..more natural foods etc.

And yes children did die and mainly because we did not all have the transport/ability etc to get to hospitals or doctors. Also medication was not as advanced.

Other things can cause deafness in a child

Acquired Causes
Acquired hearing loss is a hearing loss which appears after birth, at any time in one's life, perhaps as a result of a disease, a condition, or an injury. The following are examples of conditions that can cause acquired hearing loss in children are:

Ear infections (otitis media) (link to specific section above)
Ototoxic (damaging to the auditory system) drugs
Meningitis
Measles
Encephalitis
Chicken pox
Influenza
Mumps
Head injury
Noise exposure

Is there an immunisation for everything listed? should we wrap our children up in cotton wool with ear plugs in so they don't bang their heads or hear loud noises??

Out of interest Jimjam, how did you find out your other boys had immune system irregularities?

LadyEvenstar-interesting post. Lots being done now on guts - and the role a healthy gut plays in maintaining good health (and the role of gut dysbiosis in developing things like type 1 diabetes, MS and yes autism). Not quackery either. Proper research. I personally think this is hugely interesting.

If anyone is particularly interested this is a really interesting video about the link between guts/gut bacteria and autism. Derrick MacFabe heads a (parent funded!) autism research centre in Canada. I had a few long chats with him and think his ideas are really interesting. Relevant for Ladyevenstar's list as well.

goldilocks- from a doctor!

Actually ds2 doesn't AFAWK. He'll probably have a measles and tetanus vaccination sometime when we can get up to London to do it. DS3 has exactly the same problems as ds1 although to a greater degree. But he hasn't had any antibiotics (despite repeated ear infections), delayed vaccinations (none to date although he will get measles and tetanus at some stage I should think) and we've been careful with his diet.

When ds3 was in hospital with a seizure we didn't have any hassle at all for him not being vaccinated. On an individual basis it's possible to have a sensible discussion with most doctors.

BTW ds3's 'problems' are immune/gut problems. Not autism related. He is developing typically.

Really interesting video, I liked the picture of the woods on fire........really makes you think.

Never mindmeasules, a friedn of mine is infertile cos he got mumps. That is a terrible legacy to give your child.

But lets be honest this immunisation does not prevent any child catching measles or mumps. They can still catch it so could still end up infertile.