to have said what I did to a perfect stranger in the library?

[Dragonbrandybutter]

This morning I went to the medical library at the hospital to request some journal articles and get some advice from the library staff. The library is open 24hours a day but only staffed during normal working hours. I'm about to start a new job and need to study.

I decided to go this morning with my 18m DS2 while DS1 was at nursery.

DS2 was babbling away while i was looking for the books i wanted, he yelped a bit while i was filling some forms but was quickly entertained with a pen and paper. He wasn't throwing tantrums or being especially loud. The staff said it was fine to have him with me and gave him a teddy to play with and said people do sometimes bring their kids in.

Out of nowhere a bloke walks up to me in one the aisles dressed i think in a nurses shirt and says, 'Do you think it's appropriate to bring children to the library?'

Here's how the conversation went...

nurse: do you think it's appropriate to bring children to the library?

DB: sorry?

nurse: i said do you really think it's appropriate to bring children to the library?

DB: yes, i do, i am just as entitled to access this library as you. i won't be reading here i've just come in to collect what i need then i will study at home.

nurse: well i don't think you should

DB: do you think it's easy to study when you have kids? why don't you go away and mind your own business?

nurse: it's supposed to be quiet, the quiet area is just over there

DB: well go to the quiet area!

nurse: ok, but if i can hear your kid from there...

DB: then you come right back and tell me about it and see if do anything about!

nurse: walks off muttering "no respect"

DB: no, i don't (pmsl, what possessed me to say this bit i don't know, perhaps some pathological need to have the last word)

So, was i assertive or rude or should i just not have been in there at all?

Why does it have to be so difficult to get my career back on track after having kids? Don't people understand that?

Just as targetting part time workers was considered indirectly discriminatory against women, then so too would be excluding people with children. StayFrosty is right, that is why it is 'indirect' discrimination.

If the library put the quiet study section too close to the desk where people 'have' to talk, then that is their problem, and not the OPs!!

I think it is worth remembering that this was not a public library (where children are par for the course), but a hospital library. I would have been very surprised to see a small child at the hospital library where I used to work, and very put out if there was a small child babbling or yelping and I was studying. I don't think that the chap handled it very well, but I think that DB was fairly rude too. No doubt both parties could have handled it better.

If the nurse had said "please could you keep it down, I'm trying to study and your baby is very distracting" and DB had said "I'm really sorry, we'll be out of here in a minute" I don't suppose anyone would have been upset.

But then our hospital library was always pretty quiet, as it was only open to staff at the hospital or students, and there were plenty of other places for socialising. Mostly people were in there to prepare for exams, do research or complete assignments, so there was an expectation of pretty much silence.

Although this isnt a public library per se is it, its a medical library where people do go to work and study, some articles are difficult to understand and do require quiet concentration.
Having said that i have had to take my toddler son with me to return books, or pick up some requested journals so intending to quickly pop in and out, for that very reason.

I can see both pov tbh

I can understand that the nurse might have wanted silence, but it's not as if you had set up camp to be there for hours. And if that staff said it was ok, then it was ok. Don't let it ruin your day.

The idea that this is sexist is just crap. Is it then sexist that women are not allowed to take their children to work?

This was a hospital library. For staff and students. I really don't see where children are involved in either studying (children in lecturers anyone?) or working (children in operating theatres?).

Dittany, you say that people go to libraries to study and may have children with them. If their reason for being there is to read or write, then why can't they do that at home.

Obviously is different if they can only access materials in that library, but if they are there for peace to study then it is surely counter intuitive to have your kids there.

I was a bit surprised by the arrangement of a local public library yesterday, quiet study area right next door to kids' library on 1st floor. With toilets and lift in the "quiet" section.

I think young man was unreasonable though, it doesn't sound like he'd actually got as far as the quiet section and then been disturbed by OP and DC yet.

Good luck with new job dbb.

My husband has several times had young children of students in his maths lectures when the child was off school or nursery for one reason or another. Never causes any problems, though on one occasion in a silence a little voice went 'Mummy, your school is very boring.'
People study medicine, nursing and midwifery later in life quite often so you can see why the sitation would arise that a student needs to trail the child round to a lecture or the library.

btw I don't think that Dragonbrandybutter was wrong to go in with her little boy - I'm sure she thought the whole process would taken much less time. Personally I would have taken the forms somewhere else to complete (but my children were very noisy and active at that age - we didn't even go to public libraries) and brought them back.

But this sort of library will not be child friendly, and people will not expect to make allowances. Bear in mind that a lot of the research that people will be doing is using journals, which cannot be removed from the library, so those studying there will not have the choice to go elsewhere. Also lots of people will be working and studying, so may feel a lot of time pressure (and be tired, and therefore grumpy).

We sometimes have kids at work when childcare arrangements have broken down (although I am sure it is against the rules). If the children are noisy there are a lot of complaints. I don't actually think that is unreasonable (or sexist). I don't think work, lectures halls, academic libraries etc are good environments for children.

But Dittany an academic library is an adult environment. There will be nothing there appropriate to amuse a child. The only reason to spend any length of time in an academic library is to study. They aren't generally particularly fun environments for adults either!

Dittany, how can you use the argument that the librarian said it was OK? If the librarian had said that it wasn't ok or there had been a large 'ghostbusters' sign with kids on it you would be equally 'anti' as this is sexism to you.

So the librarian and/ or 'other people doing it' (which seems a childish argument anyway) is neither here nor there - you think that academic libraries should be open to kids or else it's sexist.

But this was not a public library. Many of the resources are not removable, and many of those using the library will be doing so in between work commitments.

I don't think DBB was wrong to visit the library with her son in tow, but I do think she should have brought her ds some quiet activities, or used another space within the hospital to complete the forms if they were long and complicated.

I am arguing that it is not silly to think that an academic library, with no public access should be considered an environment for adults. And that it is not sexist to assume that people will not bring their children to them on a regular basis.

Stay Frosty, it wasn't a public library ie a community one, it was a medical library, ie an academic one.

I'm sure everybody who uses academic libraries are fine with library-level adult voices asking for information or conducting necessary library business. Nobody expects pure silence - there will be traffic outside etc anyway.

I'm with Moondog on this one, but less stroppy before you all jump on me! YABU to the OP, 30 minutes of babbling and other noises is quite long, how was the guy supposed to know you were eventually going to clear off? He might have been rude but I don't see the pride in being rude in return.

I agree you expect a level of noise in a library. You may be able to tune out photocopier noises and others that you "expect" but probably get distracted by child noises. I also get annoyed by sniffing, even when done very quietly.

OK, so lets see:
? Can be objectively justified on grounds other than sex

The library is a space for quiet study and research for all students and staff

? Corresponds to a real need on the part of the employer

Clinicians are required to ensure their knowledge is up to date, and students are required to study in order to pass their exams and assessments

? Is appropriate with a view to meeting that need

Clinical journals and other research requires silence in order for those reading it to understand the implications of that study

? Is necessary to meet that need

Medical journals, research papers and other source material are very expensive and bulky. It is not practical to expect students or clinicians to purchase these materials for study at home. Clinicians may also need to update their knowledge during their working day, so access in the hospital is important.

There. I don't think that was terribly hard. Quite apart from the H&S aspects of ensuring that every space in every workplace is safe for small children.

But I think this is veering off the original topic, as I doubt that the OP plans to bring her child to the library to study, and is unlikely to need to fill forms in again. Picking up or dropping off books shouldn't take more than a few minutes in future, so no major disturbance required.