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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel angry at my sisters NCT antenatal course teacher.

113 replies

LBsmum · 19/11/2008 21:13

My sister is due in December and over the weekend has developed complications resulting in her being admitted into hospital ? on phoning her course teacher to explain she would be missing the remaining evening classes the woman responded by saying ?Oh I hope that doesn?t mean they will induce you ? urhhh ? which I find an outstandingly unsupportive and inappropriate reaction. Further during part of the course my sister managed to attend this teacher produced epidural needles to show the class whilst emphasising what a particularly gruesome procedure it was ? again I consider this inappropriate and can only assume she is trying to scare people into not having an epidural.
This is not an anti-NCT rant, I am a member and my own antenatal class was run by a practising midwife who sensibly discussed epidurals as part of a range of options available. I am just feeling frustrated by the natural birth high horse my sisters teacher seems to be on and feel bad for encouraging my sister to take the course.

OP posts:
cory · 24/11/2008 07:41

Are you not suggesting here that my birth experience doesn't count- that you know more about what it was like than I do?

I am not the sort of person who feels I have to be grateful at all costs (you should hear me on the subject of dd's medical care in later years!), but I was there when I gave birth and you were not. You sound like yet another person who knows more about my feelings than I do.

To start once again: both I and my dcs have different genetic health problems. These have not been caused by anything done by the hospital. They are genetic.

The hospital was committed to natural birth- unfortunately my body was not.

My midwife did really really try to get me to move about more and stand up more. I had been shown any number of pictures beforehand of women squatting and standing. I knew this was what you were supposed to do. But I was ill and tired and dizzy so found it very difficult. That was certainly not the hospital's fault. Again, the reason I had an episiotomy was because I asked for it.

I may not have come out in reasonable condition- but then I didn't go in in reasonable condition either.

Dd did not feed well, for the same reason that she is now in a wheelchair and off school for 1/3 of the time. Genetics. (We did not get the final diagnosis until she was 8. So I suppose I could have gone on blaming her birth experience. But with hindsight that would have been rather unfair.)

I did see other women come out in better condition than they'd gone in, including the woman who had previously had two stillbirths because her local hospital couldn't be bothered to investigate after the first one. She had lupus and had no chance to give birth to a living baby without medical interventions. I was on the ante-natal ward with her twice- both our two babies born at the same time- and it was amazing to see how she came to life and gained confidence. So if she feels loyal to the hospital who gave her a chance of motherhood, then I can understand that.

I repeat: I respect NCT values and what they are trying to achieve. But those of us who have been dealt a different hand by fate, those of us who have serious health problems in the family, need a chance to have our experience validated too. Not to have other people tell us that we are just being loyal and don't really know what we're talking about. I did not resent my friend promoting estimable values. I resented her trying to apply them to me, after I had explained my different situation.

cory · 24/11/2008 08:04

To me, an NCT teacher saying 'Ah, you think you had a good birth experience, but I know better' sounds exactly the same as an elderly consultant saying: 'Ah, women think they want a natural birth, but we doctors know what's really good for them'.

In both cases, the assumption is made that a woman who goes into labour cannot possible be intelligent and well read and able to make up her own mind about things. It's patronising.

tittybangbang · 24/11/2008 11:20

Cory - I'm not commenting on your personal experience in any way at all. How could I - I don't know anything about it. I find it odd that you think I am. I was talking about other people - my post makes that very clear. I was trying to find an explanation why your neighbor might be so evangelical in her attitudes (I'm not excusing her tactlessness). I'm glad that you had optimal care in labour, but it's simply not the case with many of the mothers I come into contact with.

And it's really, really not about telling mothers how they 'should' feel about the birth they had. I'm delighted if someone comes out from a caesarean following a failed ventouse and forceps birth still smiling, happy and content. Brilliant. And I did make the point that I never comment on the care that they've had unless people directly ask me what I think.

But when you know about what constitutes good care you do feel downhearted when you know that many of the the things the midwives do on the labour ward contravene the hospitals own protocols, let alone the rules of 'best practice' - I know this because I'm familiar with the hospital and the way things work there, but the mothers generally don't. They put all their trust and confidence in their midwife, and there's no denying that most of the midwives are extremely kind and very hard working. But many of them are really not up to date with their practice and are not providing the sort of care that gives women the best chance of having an uncomplicated birth.

I could give you so many examples - of low risk women left on monitors for hours and hours, of women told that they can't get off the bed if they're being monitored, of women denied epidurals when they're 7cm dilated because it's 'too late', or conversely of midwives positively badgering them to use pethidine, of women routinely giving birth lying on their backs with their legs in stirrups, or being denied access to the birth pools or the birth centre for the most trivial of reasons, of coached valsalva pushing (which results in longer second stages and a greater likelyhood of fetal distress), of the majority of women being bullied into using formula because their baby hasn't fed within 4 hours of birth.

And by the way - it's not just me thinking these things. The senior midwives at the hospital and local bf counsellors also completely exasperated with some of the things that happen at the hospital.

And women can be as intelligent as you like, but they still get rail-roaded into things that are not right for them and not what they want, because that's what happens in labour. I had a doctor in my class who was pushed into giving formula to her baby in hospital even though she said she knew at one level it wasn't necessary, but she said all her confidence deserted her after the birth because she was so frightened about her baby being ill. Being well informed or otherwise is neither here nor there.

I'd never tell anyone how they should feel about their births. Nothing I've said in my posts suggests that I do this or that I think it's ok that other people do it. I can't see how on earth you can make a comparison with what I've said about the care women get in our local hospital and paternalistic attitudes towards natural birth.

tittybangbang · 24/11/2008 11:20

Cory - I'm not commenting on your personal experience in any way at all. How could I - I don't know anything about it. I find it odd that you think I am. I was talking about other people - my post makes that very clear. I was trying to find an explanation why your neighbor might be so evangelical in her attitudes (I'm not excusing her tactlessness). I'm glad that you had optimal care in labour, but it's simply not the case with many of the mothers I come into contact with.

And it's really, really not about telling mothers how they 'should' feel about the birth they had. I'm delighted if someone comes out from a caesarean following a failed ventouse and forceps birth still smiling, happy and content. Brilliant. And I did make the point that I never comment on the care that they've had unless people directly ask me what I think.

But when you know about what constitutes good care you do feel downhearted when you know that many of the the things the midwives do on the labour ward contravene the hospitals own protocols, let alone the rules of 'best practice' - I know this because I'm familiar with the hospital and the way things work there, but the mothers generally don't. They put all their trust and confidence in their midwife, and there's no denying that most of the midwives are extremely kind and very hard working. But many of them are really not up to date with their practice and are not providing the sort of care that gives women the best chance of having an uncomplicated birth.

I could give you so many examples - of low risk women left on monitors for hours and hours, of women told that they can't get off the bed if they're being monitored, of women denied epidurals when they're 7cm dilated because it's 'too late', or conversely of midwives positively badgering them to use pethidine, of women routinely giving birth lying on their backs with their legs in stirrups, or being denied access to the birth pools or the birth centre for the most trivial of reasons, of coached valsalva pushing (which results in longer second stages and a greater likelyhood of fetal distress), of the majority of women being bullied into using formula because their baby hasn't fed within 4 hours of birth.

And by the way - it's not just me thinking these things. The senior midwives at the hospital and local bf counsellors also completely exasperated with some of the things that happen at the hospital.

And women can be as intelligent as you like, but they still get rail-roaded into things that are not right for them and not what they want, because that's what happens in labour. I had a doctor in my class who was pushed into giving formula to her baby in hospital even though she said she knew at one level it wasn't necessary, but she said all her confidence deserted her after the birth because she was so frightened about her baby being ill. Being well informed or otherwise is neither here nor there.

I'd never tell anyone how they should feel about their births. Nothing I've said in my posts suggests that I do this or that I think it's ok that other people do it. I can't see how on earth you can make a comparison with what I've said about the care women get in our local hospital and paternalistic attitudes towards natural birth.

cory · 24/11/2008 11:49

Well I will make the same concession and say that I certainly would not agree with the things you mention It sounds awful. And very unlike the way it's done here. At our hospital they came round to check that you were breastfeeding, and if you wanted to give formula you really had to justify yourself very hard. So in a sense you were railroaded into bf'ing. Not perhaps ideal but at least different from what you describe.

(Not so good for me in the long run as I was totally committed and refused to let doctor change the prescription for a medicine that was having bad side effects, because taking another one would mean giving formula at 4 months. I really was committed.. But you could argue that was my own fault, not the hospital's; I could have used my brains on that one.)

Gateau · 26/11/2008 12:53

Disgusting, but not surprising. Make an official complaint about her to the NCT. I wonder if it will do much good, though.
I would never recommend NCT antenatal classes to anyone. A load of crap and a waste of money.

CatIsSleepy · 26/11/2008 13:00

LBsMum sorry your sister's teacher is so crap! that's just not what she needs

can i just say though....my NCT teacher was really lovely.At least 2 (or maybe 3? ) members of our group ended up having caesarians and no-one got any grief! am still in touch with most of my group...

BlueJellie · 26/11/2008 18:04

This isn't just the NCT. I attended an NHS class and the midwife who led the class was very pro-natural birth. Anyone who dared asked about forms of pain relief was shot down immediatley, she even poo-pooed pethadine!

nicky111 · 26/11/2008 18:23

Yes I found the difference between the NHS antenatal class and the reality of labouring at the same hospital quite shocking. Basically in the class you are given a load of old guff about being supported and breathing and positions and oooh maybe you'll feel like some gas and air. In reality you are strapped to a monitor, induced, left to labour on a busy antenatal ward, offered diamorphine if you request gas and air and left for hours as they don't want anyone else upstairs in the delivery suite.
I wish there was more information on induction given to women as it seems to be skated over in a 'it won't happen to you,' kind of way.

TinkerBellesMum · 26/11/2008 22:21

NCT and NHS were totally honest with the groups I was in. They spoke about how the body works naturally and also how and when to bring in interventions and pain relief. My NCT teacher had a home birth with an induction at 42 weeks for her first three babies. I think we had the balance right in both classes - but both classes were NCT!

lingle · 27/11/2008 19:23

In 2002, the NCT publication I was given described epidurals as "numbing you from the waist down".
I described this to the midwife during my comfortable labour, featuring a fab epidural. She sighed, saying "it's pretty rare that an epidural results in a total block of sensation nowadays".

I think the NCT has done good work but that Cory's points that it risks falling into the same trap as traditional medics is a very good one.

ChukkyPig · 27/11/2008 20:07

This has brought back bad memories about our NCT classes. In the first session I asked when we would talk about pain relief and was told "we don't talk about pain, it's discomfort".

In the BF session I asked what to do about cracked nipples, how to spot mastitis, what to do if it really hurt. I asked because my close friends had all BF and had all had an awful time initially, and wanted to avoid a bad time as much as possible as I was determined to BF. The woman said that difficulties/pain BF are very rare, when I said all my friends had had problems she said she couldn't possibly understand how that could be.

They would not talk about induction or CS at all, even when asked direct questions.

Another session i was reduced to tears after we were sent to the back of the room away from everyone else while relaxation exercises were done.

I didn't go back after that, but did leave a message to explain that we were busy for the remaining sessions.

I told her by email about the baby when she was born - weight etc - as she had asked. She then included the details of all the other babies born to our group in the newsletter, except ours. Pathetic.

It seems to me that for every balanced and sane NCT person there is someone to tell a story of someone horrible/a loon. To those of you who work for the NCT - is this ever addressed? i know you have said that people should complain, but this woman was quite scary and had made me cry, and I want to try and forget the whole NCT thing ever happened, I really shouldn't read these threads! Why can't they just present the facts and stats in an unbiased way? Why say that pain isn't pain? Why say BF will be a breeze when for so women it isn't? It just sets people up for a fall...

TinkerBellesMum · 29/11/2008 22:51

I've got to admit that's how I've got through my labours. I get cross with MWs this time (in my false starts) because I won't say "I'm in pain" so they don't think it's real. It hurts but I don't see it as in pain because it goes again and then all is OK. I also think that by playing it down to myself I'm not going to interfere too much with the natural processes (apart from the whole CS and GA thing!) My first labour was G&A for the last half hour and only because I was told to take it (took me awhile as I couldn't get my head around why they were giving G&A to a pregnant woman! It's a contraindication so I wouldn't take it) with Tink I didn't have anything until fully dilated and they took me for a GA. In my false starts I only had co-dydramol for the labour pain last time, any other time it's been because my back pain is too distracting.

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