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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel angry at my sisters NCT antenatal course teacher.

113 replies

LBsmum · 19/11/2008 21:13

My sister is due in December and over the weekend has developed complications resulting in her being admitted into hospital ? on phoning her course teacher to explain she would be missing the remaining evening classes the woman responded by saying ?Oh I hope that doesn?t mean they will induce you ? urhhh ? which I find an outstandingly unsupportive and inappropriate reaction. Further during part of the course my sister managed to attend this teacher produced epidural needles to show the class whilst emphasising what a particularly gruesome procedure it was ? again I consider this inappropriate and can only assume she is trying to scare people into not having an epidural.
This is not an anti-NCT rant, I am a member and my own antenatal class was run by a practising midwife who sensibly discussed epidurals as part of a range of options available. I am just feeling frustrated by the natural birth high horse my sisters teacher seems to be on and feel bad for encouraging my sister to take the course.

OP posts:
dilemma456 · 20/11/2008 09:57

Message withdrawn

thumbwitch · 20/11/2008 10:01

i didn't join the NCT class, having been warned off by a couple of friends who also had bad experiences and referred to them as the NCT fascists.

It sounds like it's very teacher-dependent - perhaps it should be standardised to avoid personal prejudice bias.

for your sister - no YANBU, pg is a time for reassurance and support, not scare tactics.

sunnygirl1412 · 20/11/2008 10:01

I have both attended NCT antenatal classes and been a class supporter at antenatal classes, and in neither case did I feel that the natural childbirth agenda was being forced on the classes. The aim of the classes was to give the attendees as much information as possible so that they could make the best choices for them during labour and delivery.

This is what the NCT should be doing - and I am appalled to hear that they are not doing it in so many cases. At its best the NCT can be an invaluable source of information and support - my three closest friends are women who I met whilst I was in the NCT and attending coffee mornings etc.

I bottle fed all three of my babies, because my own supply never seemed to nourish them and they never gained weight on only me, but I never heard or saw the slightest intimation of any criticism of me for that. In fact, the only NCT member who gave me a hard time for failing to breastfeed was ME!

I hope that any of you who have had negative experiences with NCT antenatal teachers and classes will contact NCT HQ and share your experiences. I would hope and expect that they would be as horrified as I am, and that they'd do something about it, and fast!

And SheikYerbouti - huge kudos to you for such a marvellous comeback, and I hope that the feeling of failure did not linger - because someone who made the right decisions for the health of her dc and herself even if it meant not having the birth they wanted, is a success in my book.

ithinkimtallandblonde · 20/11/2008 10:03

NCT GRRR, an NCT teacher told me the other day that i breastfed my dd because i loved her when i asked her, if she meant that people who formula fed didn't love there's she said "they don't have a bond with there baby in the same way they don't give it love when it needs love they don't cuddle it or hold it. Sorry but WHAT?

Mum2OliverJames · 20/11/2008 10:15

I am at the attitude of this woman that is supposed to be supporting your sister, i am not suprised that she dropped the course!

I definately think she should be reported before she carries on to scare more mums to be.

i NEEDED to have an epidural as i had got pre-eclampsia and my blood pressure was very very high (i wasn't even allowed to stand up) i am so bloody glad i didnt even see the needle because i am petrified of having an kind of injection and knowing what size needle was about to go into my spine would have mad me alot more nervous than i already was.

dont get me wrong i am all for being told exactly how things work but i believe that it is the FACTS that should be told, not the course intructors opinion.

sunnygirl1412 · 20/11/2008 10:25

Ohhh, ithinkimtallandblonde, that's appalling!!! If anyone had said that to me I'd have hit the roof. FGS what does she think we neglectful bottle feeders do - prop the babies up with a cushion and wedge the bottle in?? I've always cuddled my babies and have carried on cuddling them since then.

The bond between us as a result is sooo weak and tenuous that they still come to me for cuddles or sit on my lap all the time - though the 15-year-old is getting a little heavy for the latter.

gabygirl · 20/11/2008 10:26

Christiana - I needed an epidural because my baby was back to back, so long, long labour. Since then I wonder if I would have needed an epidural had I had better midwifery care. The midwife was in and out of the room, she didn't try to help me find other ways to cope with the labour. TBH, she didn't want to actually touch me in any way, just kept encouraging me to take pethidine so I'd go quiet and stop making demands for support. I also had a posterior baby with my third baby, again very, very long labour, longer and more painful than my first. That time around I had a brilliant midwife and a friend act as doula, was at home for most of it, and didn't find myself needing an epidural to get through the labour, even though once again it was very long and very painful.

"surely a temporary drop in blood pressure - 'unpleasant sensation' - is better than the continue pain that 'necessitated' your epidural (if i'm wrong and you needed an epidural for other reasons I'm sorry)"

What an odd thing to say. I wasn't complaining about the drop in blood pressure or being 'ungrateful' for the relief I got from the pain. What I was trying to flag up was the fact that I found the experience of having an epidural very frightening, because I hadn't been properly informed as to what to expect.

I'm not surprised you want an epidural for your next birth. Induced labours can be so horribly, unnaturally painful. I feel very sorry for people who are put through all that without the option of an epidural.

Re: the issue of NCT teachers and midwives being keen on 'natural birth' - I think it's really odd that people can't see the reasons for this. I'm a doula and I know from my work and from what my colleagues say that most women WANT to have a birth without interventions if possible. It's a perfectly rational thing to want. If interventions like induction, monitoring and operative birth are avoidable and a mother and baby can get through safely without them, then surely that's best for everyone concerned? Interventions are only beneficial if they serve a purpose. Otherwise they're positively harmful. There's a huge amount of concern about the high levels of routine intervention in normal birth in this country. I have not yet met a midwife or doula that doesn't think that this is a major worrying issue, and that induction, monitoring, instrumental births, augmentation etc, should NOT be happening at the current levels. Almost all of them feel that women are having huge amounts of intervention because of overstretched midwifery care, bad management in hospitals and a fear based hospital culture.

BTW, my 'proof' for saying that levels of intervetion are way too high comes from the research on homebirth. Basically low risk women who have homebirths have half the rates of instrumental birth (forceps/ventouse/c-section) compared to similar low risk mums who give birth in hospital, and that's when you include in the homebirth figures all the women who transfer in during labour because their births have gone pear shaped. If intervention levels in hospital were appropriate then you'd expect to see similar levels in low risk mums giving birth in non-medical settings, but you don't. If you're someone working with low risk mums (like an NCT teacher) and you keep seeing healthy women who've had normal pregnancies going into hospital and coming out after having had every single intervention in the book, over and over again, and you KNOW there's a fair chance that some of them could have avoided all that if they'd been cared for in a different way - well, of course it gets frustrating! I feel for them. It's not just NCT teachers who despair over this - it's midwives as well. Why on earth do you think they're leaving the profession in droves!

orangehead · 20/11/2008 10:39

I think the comment about about induction unneccessary. However we were shown the epidural needle at the antenatal class at the hospital. A couple of women in the class were very set on having an epidural as soon as they got to hospital and they wanted to see it and it didnt put them off when they saw it apparently it helped them as they imagined it bigger. But understand not everyone would like to see it. My nct teacher was very good, when talking to her about my son being back to back, she knew I really didnt want a epidural, she kindly explained that many women who have back to back labours have an epidural as they can often be very hard. She was right after a long painful 10 hours I gave in. I was so glad she was realistic about things. Sorry waffling now. How is your sister?

orangehead · 20/11/2008 10:39

I think the comment about about induction unneccessary. However we were shown the epidural needle at the antenatal class at the hospital. A couple of women in the class were very set on having an epidural as soon as they got to hospital and they wanted to see it and it didnt put them off when they saw it apparently it helped them as they imagined it bigger. But understand not everyone would like to see it. My nct teacher was very good, when talking to her about my son being back to back, she knew I really didnt want a epidural, she kindly explained that many women who have back to back labours have an epidural as they can often be very hard. She was right after a long painful 10 hours I gave in. I was so glad she was realistic about things. Sorry waffling now. How is your sister?

hertsnessex · 20/11/2008 10:41

Back to Back doesnt mean you HAVE to have an epidural.

orangehead · 20/11/2008 10:46

I know it doesnt, but many do and she was just encouraging me to have a open mind

hertsnessex · 20/11/2008 10:49

I totally agree with looking at all options - information before labour is key to labour and how you handle it.

LindenAvery · 20/11/2008 12:52

Gabygirl - I agree with what you say, however mums see promtion of natural birth and breastfeeding as potentially being issues to question their status as 'good-enough parents' rather than understanding why they are promoted and not viewing it from a personal stance.(Difficult I will admit!)

Is it a person's own expectations that they fail to live up to or pressures from external sources?

I think people can become too sensitive about certain issues rather than focussing on the positives, there are always issues inviting you to compare- whilst you should look at the whole and also understand that people are entitled to their own opinions.

You cannot standardise an NCT class because no class will ever be the same BECAUSE of the parents who attend. Even if you were just presenting information parents will ask various questions and even sticking to the facts will create a difference of opinion.

PV - Yes I enjoy Stephen Donaldson too, although my name is potentially too revealing ( if anyone i know uses this forum!)

rolledhedgehog · 20/11/2008 14:23

I am training to be an NCT antenatal teacher and I find these sorts of threads really very depressing and frustrating - especially the reference to facists etc. The training programme is rigerous and a huge part of it is learning how not to pass your own opinions and prejeudices onto clients. Some teachers began teaching a long time ago and did not go through the same training process and are out of date. If a teacher says something you feel is prejeudicial, such as formula feeding mothers don't love their babies, then you should complain about them to head office because they need retraining. If no one complains then nothing can be done.

The NCT is not anti-formula feeding they are just pro-breastfeeding. They are also pro-choice re pain-relief. In order to make informed choices you need information - don't see anything wrong with showing the realities of epidurals. Showing the needle is a pretty standard part of classes.

I think that most clients come to classes with pre-conceived ideas about what the NCT is about i.e anti-intervention, anti-drugs and they sometimes they hear what they want/expect to hear from the teacher and not the message the teacher is trying to give which is all about making informed decisions.

To the OP - maybe your sister caught the teacher on the hop a bit and she was not as careful with her words as she should have been. Having had an induction myself though I can see why she may have been trying to suggest that your sister discuss whether it can be avoided as it can have a pretty dramatic impact on the birth.

cory · 20/11/2008 15:48

Can I just point out that not all inductions (even without epidurals) are that horrible?

I could have had an epidural with my first induction, I am sure, but I never thought of asking for one, because really I felt I could cope perfectly well on a bit of gas and air. No need to feel sorry for everyone who has an induction, Gabygirl; people have very different experiences.

The second induction did end in an emergency Caesarian but that was to do with ds's genetic health problems + I was quite bad with pre-eclampsia. I didn't find the epidural at all unpleasant; the only thing that was seriously unpleasant was the pre-eclampsia.

christiana · 20/11/2008 17:57

Message withdrawn

KatieScarlett2833 · 20/11/2008 18:06

I was pro choice re pain relief.... I wanted it and lots of it. No way was I going to be a martyr to the NCT groupthink. FWIW, I never saw the needle.

christiana · 20/11/2008 18:15

Message withdrawn

rolledhedgehog · 20/11/2008 18:30

Not all teachers show the needle. I have observed 4 courses and I think only one showed it. Lots of people have no idea what happens in an epidural and want to know so the teacher would describe how it is sited and what it involves. It is not a tactic to put anyone off although the down sides are given as well as the upsides. Sometimes lots of the equipement is shown and handled and the teacher asks people to guess what the bits and bobs are for. That excercise is supposed to make it more understandable and less frightening.

WinkyWinkola · 20/11/2008 18:32

Well, I think it's kind of important to know what treatment you could be getting in labour and to know what's going on. Perhaps showing a needle would be part of that. Some women like to know what's going on particularly since they won't be able to see the needle being used in their backs.

By the way, most NCT teachers set agendas that are shaped by their clients in the first session. That way the things the clients want to be covered are dealt with.

TinkerBellesMum · 20/11/2008 19:06

I've had an NHS and an NCT course and neither showed the needle, both said they only show things to be helpful and didn't feel the needle was. I'm quite glad because although I self inject I am scared of needles!

If she had to say anything why couldn't she just remind her of T-BRAINS? So she remembers she doesn't have to have anything done without understanding it or that she doesn't want etc.

christiana · 20/11/2008 19:07

Message withdrawn

WinkyWinkola · 20/11/2008 19:16

Well, that's not strictly true. When I have injections, the nurse often taps the needle in front of me and talks to me about it and what it's going to feel like etc.

There's also a lot of fear in not knowing what's going on too. Lots of women worry about not being in control, feeling vulnerable, not understanding what's happening etc.

Perhaps for some by seeing the needle, its size and the procedure involved in delivering an epidural, some fear would be eliminated. Everyone is of course different.

I think it's important for women to know the risks associated with epidurals too. That way they can make an educated decision about having one or not.

As a trainee ante natal teacher who comes into contact with many trainee and qualified teachers, I can state that those who would condemn a labouring woman for having an epidural are very few and far between. In fact, I've met more non NCT folk who regard pain relief as a wuss option.

rolledhedgehog · 20/11/2008 19:16

I don't think that showing the needle weeks before the proceedure might occur is the same as waving the needle at you right before inserting it personally. I had an epidural during my first labour and the last thing on my mind was the size of the needle - I would not have cared if it was 6ft long at that point!

The trouble is some people want to know all the ins and out before they make a decision and some people don't. Personally as a future teacher I probably won't show the needle but I bet some people will ask exactly how big it is.

Quattrocento · 20/11/2008 19:17

This is what I object to about the NCT actually. Deny deny deny ...:

"I think that most clients come to classes with pre-conceived ideas about what the NCT is about i.e anti-intervention, anti-drugs and they sometimes they hear what they want/expect to hear from the teacher and not the message the teacher is trying to give which is all about making informed decisions."

Let me tell you I had NO preconceived ideas about the NCT. None of my friends had children. I went with an open mind. I didn't know they were loons until I got there. My open mind rapidly became an open jaw at the blatant ignoring of my personal agenda.

My personal agenda was that I wanted oodles of pain relief. I don't find pain enabling or ennobling.

What I got was a pitying simper, ignoring all requests for information about medical intervention, and lots of stuff about how jolly nice it is to get through it all with breathing ... and how the teacher herself had given birth in a mud hut in papua new guinea with nothing but a few gourds of water. All you have to do is breathe, y'know ...

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