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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think steralisation should be enforced

377 replies

claw3 · 17/11/2008 10:17

on anyone who abuses children?

OP posts:
cory · 19/11/2008 11:16

Faced with these problems, there are two sensible questions to ask ourselves:

how do we compare with other similar countries?

it turns out UK does well, better than France, Iceland and Canada to mention just a few.

and

how do we compare with our own past?

no evidence that we are doing worse than we did either

The next question is:

what can we do to become even better. Well, obviously not something that hasn't worked in the past, or isn't working for other countries.

claw3 · 19/11/2008 11:30

Cory - And the Home Office report shows that prison sentences for homicide were increased by 30% over a 10 year period. So people are not getting off more lightly, they are getting longer sentences

shame it doesnt state how long these sentances actually are. That could mean anything ie a 10 year sentence, now increased to 13, life doesnt mean life and does it include time off for good behaviour, time served on remand etc.

ASBOs etc and petty crime, rehab is probably the answer. But do you think the more distrubed criminals are capable of change?

OP posts:
AuntieMaggie · 19/11/2008 11:41

I kind of agree with the OP. But then I am related to someone who had 2 DD with someone who it turned out subjected them to the most horrific abuse behind his back. Needless to say they were taken off of her...BUT she is pregnant with her second child since this by other men and has been allowed to keep them!

Why was she allowed to get pregnant again and also keep the children?

I'm all for giving people second chances but given the nature of abuse that is only being revealed now several years after the DD were taken away I would seriously question a society that lets her have more children and keep them! And lets face it - if she can have them there's a likelihood she'll slip through the system and be allowed to keep them!

AuntieMaggie · 19/11/2008 11:43

No it wouldn't stop some abusers abusing other children, but would stop those that have children and subject them to abuse.

BTW the girl I was talking about is in her early 20's so has plenty of child bearing years left.

cory · 19/11/2008 12:09

I don't know, Claw. I really don't know what we should be doing with the most disturbed criminals. I don't pretend it's an easy question. Possibly they cannot be rehabilitated and should be kept locked up for life. But usually that kind of person does stay in for a long time anyway and their chances of coming out and starting again are quite slim. Remember the HO report also said reconviction rates are quite low for murder.

The Myra Hindleys and Peter Sutcliffs of this world aren't actually the ones getting time off for good behaviour, are they?

But I am opposed to any irreversible punishment, such as castration, because mistakes have been made over guilt in the past and it is unlikely that we will ever achive a justice system that does not make mistakes in the future.

I think partly, calls for harsher punishment tend to lump all serious criminals together- from child abusers to drug gang members to bank robbers to murderers of rich aunts, where the approach needed may actually differ from case to case.

Child abuse is the one we probably feel is the worst crime and deserves the hardest punishment. It also seems likely that somebody who has done it once is quite likely to reoffend.

On the other hand, it is arguably the one where mistakes are most easily made in conviction. Many parents have gone to jail for shaken baby syndrome, the assumption by doctors that if a baby is shaken it will develop certain symptoms. Now, it is pretty obvious that you can never test this theory. You can't take 50 babies and shake them and see if they do indeed develop these symptoms, or if something different happens. And as baby-shaking tends to be one of the most hidden crimes there is, it is difficult to know if any one baby used as comparative material has been shaken or not. We also do not know whether there are any other causes which can produce these symptoms.

Another danger is that we know that there is a historical tendency to witch hunts, when health or social professionals suddenly take it into their heads that there is massive abuse going on and develop a hysterical disregard for actual proof, because the crime seems so heinous. Experience shows that it is incredibly difficult for juries and judges to stay level-headed during such a surge of hysteria. Think about those two Sheffield nursery workers who lost their livelihoods and everything for child abuse when it was subsequently proved that they had not been working in the nursery at the time when the child making the allegations attended it.

I certainly do not think we should treat child abusers lightly. But I do think, given these objections, that the solution is to only stick to punishments that are not irreversible. Because experience shows that some of these people will eventually turn out to be innocent, and will eventually have to be released with an apology.

Gang violence/bank robberies/professional criminal violence probably carries the highest risk of re-offending and is often fairly straightforward to prove. We know what happens when you shoot somebody through the heart, all the prosecution needs to do is to show that it was the accused who did it. The only reason these people may get off with slightly lower sentences is because of public feeling that it's not the worst crime you can commit and that you need to keep something in reserve for the really heinous murders. Understandably.

Someone who murders their rich aunt or unfaithful wife may be convicted on perfectly sound grounds and richly deserve their punishment. But then again, they are probably the people who are least likely to reoffend, so giving them a long sentence may not actually improve the crime rate at all. Not to say that you shouldn't punish them, of course.

claw3 · 19/11/2008 12:16

AM - As you say it can take years for any abuse to come to light, so what could appear to be case of an abuser given a second chance being successful, could be quite the opposite.

Admittedly there are cases of abusers being successful given a 2nd chance, so i suppose the question should be are we willing to take that chance?

Although lots of people think they should be given a chance, they wouldnt leave their own children in that persons care.

So its kinda like they can be trusted but as long as its only that persons child who is at risk. I dont get that.

OP posts:
claw3 · 19/11/2008 12:45

Cory - Peter Sutcliffe for example was given about 20 life sentences i think, but is due for parole in 2011?? I doubt he will get it, but all the same 20 life sentences equals about 20 years, thats bizarre. Appears you have to kill about 13 people to be taken seriously.

Im sure a few innocent people, do slip through the net and can see your point about irreversible punishment. Unfortunately child abuse does seem to be one of the areas you do get time off for good behaviour etc and i really dont feel the punishment fits the crime in most cases, torture and kill a child, out in about 10 years to carry on as if it didnt happen.

OP posts:
theSuburbanDryad · 19/11/2008 12:50

claw - again you show your naivety wrt prisons and prison sentences.

People who have spent 10 years in prison do then get out and continue their lives "as if nothing had happened". Can you imagine re-entering a society you had been almost completely cut off from for 10 years?

theSuburbanDryad · 19/11/2008 12:51

Do not get out and then continue their lives...

Sorry.

claw3 · 19/11/2008 13:25

SD - Yes i am lacking in experience of prisons, i think most people are. Im asuming that you must have some experience?

and no i cant imagine re-entering society after 10 years after torturing and killing a child. I should imagine that i would be so wrecked with guilt and remorse, i would be unable to carry on with life at all.

OP posts:
theSuburbanDryad · 19/11/2008 13:26

I have friends who have been in both youth detention facilities and adult prisons.

I've also spent some time visiting immigration detention centres. So yes, I have a little experience.

Rehabilitation is the key. Not sterilisation. But I suspect you may have gathered that from the rest of this thread!

claw3 · 19/11/2008 13:41

SD - I thought you were going to say you had some 1st hand experience ie been there or involved with your job in some way!

I know a few people who have been in prison for short periods, one who has been there 3 times and thats what concerns me, they say it is a piece of cake. They tell me its horrible in respect of you miss your friends and family etc, but i cant help thinking well thats to be expected, if you didnt do anything you wouldnt be there!

OP posts:
theSuburbanDryad · 19/11/2008 13:43

They are boasting.

Prison is not a piece of cake.

I'm not going to go into any more detail than that, but seriously, it's not. Especially not for child abusers/paedophiles - they tend to get a very hard time which is why they get put in solitary for their own protection sometimes.

Can you imagine being cut off from all human contact for 23 hours of the day? Your only contact with someone who brings you food and an hour outside?

Not a walk in the park, I assure you.

theSuburbanDryad · 19/11/2008 13:44

Also - people who've been in prison for short periods of time are unlikely to have been in a maximum security facility.

You were talking about people who had spent 10 years in prison and then getting out and going on with their lives as if nothing had happened. I can assure you it's not like that.

StewieGriffinsMom · 19/11/2008 13:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

claw3 · 19/11/2008 13:52

SD - I should imagine its better than having your ribs broken,having to live with your own excrement attached to you and not being feed at all etc, etc, and having to spend every waking moment filled with terror.

Im sorry but my sympathies are for the victims

OP posts:
theSuburbanDryad · 19/11/2008 13:56

claw - I understand, but you need to separate the emotion from the issue. If you can't then you'll never be able to have a rational discussion about it.

claw3 · 19/11/2008 14:03

SD - Thats true and hard to do

Surely prison is the detterant, the whole idea is that you are not suppose to like being there? You are supposed to be without the home comforts of TV, private bathroom etc.

Do they really keep anyone serving a life sentence (10 years) in solitary, ive never heard of anyone?

OP posts:
theSuburbanDryad · 19/11/2008 14:07

I've no idea, to be honest, but if someone was under threat of attack from other inmates for their whole sentence or on a suicide watch then I suppose it's possible.

It is difficult to separate the emotion from cases like this, which is why you get so much pitchfork-waving hysteria. I have to say that I have been very impressed with the way you have handled this thread, claw, and I hope that you can now see why enforced sterlisation would be unworkable.

God, that sounds really patronising. It's not meant like that, I assure you.

claw3 · 19/11/2008 14:16

SD - well the thread title was 'am i being unreasonable' and the majority seem to think so, so i guess i must have been

I do find it very interesting though that people who are all for rehab, wouldnt trust a person who had received rehab with their OWN children. Bit conflicting to say the least.

OP posts:
theSuburbanDryad · 19/11/2008 14:20

Well - that's kind of absurd, don't you think? I mean, I wouldn't let someone who'd been convicted of drunk driving drive my kids around (FIL being the person in question here) but that doesn't mean I don't think he's safe to be on the road (does that make sense?)

Basically I think we're all more cautious of our own children - we're biologically programmed that way - so of course I wouldn't let a convicted child abuser look after my own child.

BUT you have to remember that a convicted child abuser would be very likely to have any children removed at birth anyway, and wouldn't be able to get a job where they would be CRB checked, so the likelihood of them coming into contact with children (be it their own or someone else's) is quite small IMO.

cory · 19/11/2008 14:27

claw3 on Wed 19-Nov-08 14:16:00
"SD - well the thread title was 'am i being unreasonable' and the majority seem to think so, so i guess i must have been

I do find it very interesting though that people who are all for rehab, wouldnt trust a person who had received rehab with their OWN children. Bit conflicting to say the least."

There are lots of people in the world I wouldn't trust with the care of my children. My MIL is only the start. Doesn't mean she should be locked up. Sorry, didn't mean to be flippant. But the truth is, I might hesitate to trust somebody on the strenght of an unfounded accusation- that is my privilege as a parent- and that absolutely does not mean that I think people should be locked up on unfounded accusations.

Besides, letting somebody out of prison is not the same as saying "this person can now be trusted with children". They will have a criminal record. They will almost certainly never be able to work with children again, unless their future employer is dangerously negligent when checking their references. They won't be able to start life as if nothing had happened.

cory · 19/11/2008 14:30

Suburban's example is better.

Sex offenders tend to lead very dangerous lives in prison. Other criminals have the same attitude towards them as we do, the only difference is that they have less self-restraint, more pent-up aggression and less to lose by taking it out on somebody. So I think the chances for a convicted sex offender to have a cushy life in prison are slight. Their chances of dying in an unpleasant way are fairly high.

claw3 · 19/11/2008 14:34

SD - We should want to protect all children, not just our own. This person can either be trusted with children or they cant. If i didnt trust someone with my kids, i certainly wouldnt trust them with yours. Thats where the whole stop them from having any more kids came from. But as Cory pointed out, some innocent people could slip through.

Again with your fil, bit like double standards if you dont mind me saying, you feel safer knowing your child wont be involved if any risks are being taken. But you are not so bothered if risks are taken with others.

Not all children are removed at birth, the ss prefer to leave children with their families if at all possible. Abusers are very good at going unnoticed.

Perhaps castration etc isnt the answer, perhaps rehab isnt the answer. I dont think there is a flawless answer.

OP posts:
theSuburbanDryad · 19/11/2008 14:39

Well, by saying that I think FIL is ok to drive (recovered alcoholic) then I am saying that I am ok with him being on the same roads as my dc (potentially), so not really the double standard you're making it out to be IYSWIM.

If abusers have slipped through the net then the whole argument is irrelevant as they wouldn't come up for your hypothetical sterilisation program either. If someone has been in prison for child abuse and then goes on to have a baby (especially a woman) then the SS would be removing that baby at birth.

I agree wholeheartedly that there is not a flawless solution. In a perfect world there would be no child abuse, and no need for this discussion. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world.

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