to think steralisation should be enforced

[claw3]

on anyone who abuses children?

I agree AMumInScotland ...Claw doesn't seem to be addressing some of the negatives to castration/sterilisation pointed out but I still don't think dishing out insults really helps put a point across. It just puts the person on the defensive/puts their back up and possibly strengthens their opinion that they are right. It also makes them less likely to give your points the consderation they deserve and just to dismiss them because of the attatched insults.

Cory - i assume that men with a missing testicle for a medical reason, would have proof.

Personally if i knew that missing testicle could equal child abuser, i would think twice before allowing him near my kids and i would certainly check out his story

Amum - i did actually say, i know it wont happen.

Cory seems to be the only person with any valid points today

Cory - castration no bar to violence - missing testicle would alert women to what they could be letting themselves in for.

irreversibility=equals fewer convictions, only to be used in the most severe cases. Baby P for example, this guy is obviously severely disturbed. Will rehab work for him?

harsher punitive system=more violence in society - How would this cause more violence?

Claw3: try studying a little social history, for instance of the eras when brutal legal punishments were common (branding, amputation, torture of all kinds). You will see that this did nothing to reduce crime and often made criminals more recklessly violent ie robbers would kill their victims to prevent there being any witnesses left. State brutality leads to a more brutal society.
It;s also worth considering that when groups of people are labelled and treated as worthless, vicious scum and 'outsiders' just because they are poor then it can make things worse: if you feel that you are hated, despised and excluded from society you may well start to think that it doesn;t matter what you do so you will just take what you want and hurt anyone who gets in your way. The dreadful mix of mawkish sentimentality and brain-dead baying for blood that has become so prevalent over the last 10 years does a lot of social harm.
Are you aware, for instance, that there are a few perfectly innocent women who have never done anything wrong in their lives, who have had to have police protection because they look a bit like Maxine Carr (who BTW commited no crime of violence but lied to give an alibi to a man who was abusing her) and, having moved into new areas, have been suspected of being Maxine Carr and therefore fair game for all kinds of assault and harassment.

Singapore has a penal system which includes the death penalty and what is known as 'judicial caning' - maximum is 24 strokes. I recognise the barbarity of these methods. But having lived in that country for a lot of my life, there is a lot of evidence that hardened career criminals may not be afraid of a jail sentence per se, but they are most definitely afraid of caning. You cannot doubt its enormous deterrent effect. Singapore is one of the safest countries in the world.

What about all the abusers that are living within families already Claw? You know the two bollocked ones? The seemingly nice,gentle,husband,brother,cousin,mother sister,aunt etc(and what about the female abusers?-you gonna give them mastectomies>?)

1 in 4 children are abused,and generally they are too afraid to speak out-groomed to the extreme,those abusers continue,safe in the knowledge their victims are too petrified to speak out.How would you spot them eh?

blueshoes that is actually a very good idea.

IMO caning is hardly a barbaric act although painful I imagine but is not going to have a lasting effect other than fear, hopefully.

Maybe that would be a more responsible route to go down to show that no crime will go unpunished and wont just be a cushy jail sentence.

mamadiva, judicial caning is VERY painful.

It is conducted in private with independent witnesses and doctors present because prisoners frequently pass out whereupon caning is stopped is then continued at a later date until the full sentence is meted out.

If they get 24 strokes (maximum), convicts actually prefer a longer jail sentence so that the strokes are spread out over a longer period.

Caning is generally only prescribed for crimes of violence. It is only presribed after a full trial in a court of law.

Singapore's legal system is inherited from the English legal system but has (obviously) diverged along the way particularly on the criminal front. But on procedures, transparency and the trial process, it is highly regarded (barring the odd political defamation case).

Ah yes Singapore. Fabulous place to live.

why not just brand them with a hot iron??????

The one testical idea could be problematic.

Didn't think you would like it, solidgoldbrass.

Singapore is just an example of how a developed country has adopted a half-way house of capital and corporal punishment whilst combining it with fair and transparent legal system. Many Singapore lawyers practise law in the UK with the minimal need to transfer their qualifications (in fact, even less than Australian and New Zealand lawyers) because the training is rigorous and the legal systems generally are so similar.

I appreciate Singapore has its not totally unjustified human rights critics. But what it does have is a very safe family friendly streets, non-nonsence criminal justice system and effective police force.

I work in a global firm and almost all expats families posted in Singapore say how amazed they are that things are so safe there.

Singapore has none of that hand-wringing liberal culture - good and bad. Combined with a dominant political party in power, it is easy to push through strong and potentially unpopular measures which would be a political non-starter in the UK.

But I think most Singaporeans generally support the death penalty and caning - again, go and bad.

Detention without trial eh SGB? Bit like good old US of A and us Brits as well then.

I hate to do this but I've namechanged because I don't want to be identified in RL. I do not believe in state/corporal punishment as IMO meting out this kind of punishment makes you little better than the perpetrators of a violent/abusive crime. An 'eye for an eye' still results in the same amount of pain.

However as someone who has been failed by the justice system in this country I feel it's important to discuss why the justice and child protection system isn't enough to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

In my case I was abused by a family member as child (he was older, but still classed a child), I kept this a secret, found out as an adult that he had abused up to 5 other children, agreed with another survivor to report him, was told by CPS that no action would be taken due to our 'collusion'. My abuser has just produced his first child and every day I worry for the welfare of his family. It's the failure of systems that allow situations like this to happen. I'm at a loss how we can make leaps and bounds in certain areas of civilisation but we can not always protect the life of vulnerable humans. There are no 100 per cent effective suitable deterrants and support systems in place to deal with individuals who display abusive behaviour towards those more vulnerable than themselves. I think it comes down to the fact that you can not control the free will of others and to act as they act as a form of punishment will not solve the problems society faces.

Solid - Perhaps all abusers should be required to carry cards marked handle with care. They are not violent thugs, but social mis fits, in need of professional help!!!

We have done away with 19th century punishment, and rightly so, but enough is enough. A luxury prison sentence doesnt act as a deterrent anymore, life doesnt mean life.

Perhaps castration isnt the answer, thats not going to happen. Perhaps life meaning life is the answer, but thats even less likely to happen. I dont have all the answers, just the frustation of people literally getting away with torturing and killing children.

Agrewe with Claw Im afraid.

Also I dont see the problem with caning it's asbout as civilised as these people should be treated IMO.

I dont agree with violence really but with these types of people it is acceptable. Its not like its killing them just making them feel pain but more so it might act as a deterrant so hopefully wouldnt want to reoffend IYKWIM moreof a detterrant than a ounishment.

Been through the same Membermum-After my case was brought to court,my abuser's child as born literally weeks after-he was allowed to stay in the family home (he didn't get a prison sentance but was put on the sex offenders list) and the child was put on the at risk register until 18 (I was told) but he was allowed to live with the child.

There are some serious flaws within justice and child protection system.

So baby P's step dad goes to prison for what say 10 years with time off for good behaviour etc.

Having undergone sucessful help and being a changed person he is allowed back into society, how many of you would ask him to babysit?

Sorry poshwellies. The thing that haunts me is that if anything happens to his child I think I will feel partially responsible. The whole guilt thing...again! I'm sure you know what I mean.

I understand mm,but we really couldn't of done anymore then what we have.I know what you mean though.It's something that keeps me at wake sometimes.

Posh - 'What about all the abusers that are living within families already Claw'. Sorry cant really answer that question or how to spot them. Other than i dont think female offenders should be allowed to have more children once convicted.

mamadiva your poor dad and his siblings How did he cope with what happened to him and his family? FFS what is wrong with people who anyone, never mind hurt their own.
Btw my grandma severely beat and abused my mum as well as sending my auntie off to a convent. Just the thought of that woman scares me.

Membermum and poshwellies Im so sorry to hear what you guys went through and really disturbed those abusers went on to have children.

If people are allowed to act with impunity they will until their actions become so reckless they harm someone. By then its way to late.

People need to be taught bad actions have consequences and that people are made to understand they have to take responsibility for their actions and themselves.

female offenders shouldn't be allowed to have more children?

I understand the knee-jerk reaction, really I do, but you can't seriously be suggesting that as a sociaety we go back to ripping people open and taking away their organs? Societies progress beyond legalised physical brutality, surely - it's bizarre to want to go backwards

god this thread is enough to make me want to stick my head in the oven

Green - if you hurt an animal, you are banned for life from keeping animals. How many chances should people get with children?

Interesting enough once child abusers are let out of prison, we wouldnt trust them with our own kids, just everyone elses.